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What is your way into this material? because it's really not on the surface. >> so, i never set out to tell a history story. i'm also looking for something that's going on in current life. it's always something that is spreading from things that are going on in the news. the thing i get dinged for, rightly, i think, in terms of the way i do my work, is that if i want to tell you about something happening in the world today, everything has to start with, first, a meteor hit the air. and then, the dinosaurs died, and with their bodies dissolved -- >> that's a good bit. >> if that is not your way...

Mean, to the extent that there is a leading fascist intellectual in america, the seed is being planted and somewhat fertile soil for a bunch of reasons. and i wonder if you could talk a little bit about why that's the case. there is the fact that world war i was brutal and awful, and there's an interesting thing that happens in both this book and ultra. which is that people who totally understandably and reasonably were like, wow, that was a disaster, being kind of prepared to be like, we're never doing that again, and that posture, which is not at all a crazy posture, a totally rational postu...

>> yes. >> everybody knows what that is and i i he knows what that is. yes, i mean there's something -- there's a little bit of, i don't know what we should call it. i think of it as a playground thing that he does in terms of his politics. the term was used to describe what was happening in russian information spaces where they were writing legitimately fake made up news stories and then siloing them into the u.s. news ecoadvise through pro-russian sort of covert sources. this thing didn't happen in montenegro, but russian propaganda sources wrote that this happened in montenegro and now weir...

And as far as i can tell, it's almost as effective. >> yeah. the thing that is changed, i think, is the iterative nature of the media. your ability to talk back in a social environment. what that does is i think it can work as an accelerant. right? somebody says a lie to you, you repeat the lie back to them. okay, here's a bigger lie. you repeat that to them -- it helps those messages be targeted better, i think. but i mean, yeah, there's a very, very famous celebrity pilot in her day. pilots used to be, like, the kardashians, and the travis kelce's. they were everything altogether. they were ...

Never happened in montenegro. it was a real thing and it was part of what was going on with the russian disinformation and influence and election interference efforts in 2016 and people were starting to figure it out that was one of the weird things that was happening in our information universe in that election. and then trump adopted it and said all news is fake news so then you couldn't use that term anymore to describe this one technical thing which we had been previously describing. and without a term to describe it, we then lost track of it but then it became a thing that had a meaningle...