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For openings. make them not want to play the game anymore. how do you go about that? >> i think the first thing we have to do is here in the homeland we have to work with our private sector partners, business leaders, to improve their defenses. they need to improve on the basics but unfortunately doing the basics still is a little bit on the harder side. second, we've got to look at the business model. ransomware is a business. business is good. we have to look at what facilitates the transfer of funds from u.s. businesses to these criminals. in part that is cryptocurrency. so we have to look ...

Department of homeland security, also a cnn national security analyst, former national intelligence director, james clapper. chris, director wray is making this parallel, likening these attacks to terror attacks. do you agree with that as asse assessment? >> well, i certainly think that it's important that the fbi elevate the priority of tackling ransomware gangs akin to the terrorist threat of 9/11. i think that's in part what you're hearing here. at the same time, you're seeing the deputy national security advisor, the deputy attorney general, the secretary of homeland, all making a very cle...

Governments, on water facilities. i do get the sense, at least from the folks i talk to in the private sector, cyber intelligence world, that programs the crew, the darkside crew with colonial overstepped, right? they didn't necessarily know they were going to be knocking out the pipeline and gas supplies to the southeast. and so there's been a bit of a reckoning in that community. but it's a clear indication that we have massive vulnerabilities and due to the unregulated nature of our private sector that we are going to have to think through a different set of incentives, whether carrots or s...

Assume they are not operating without the knowledge of the russian government? >> well, knowing russia and the way it operates, particularly under vladimir putin, it's inconceivable to me that the russian intelligence services aren't aware of this and that putin has certainly at least acquiesced if not directing it. it's inconceivable to me that they would permit an attack on these sensitive infrastructure apparatus or capabilities of ours without it being at least sanctioned by the state. now, russia wants to be in a position of -- perhaps it's attributable, but also deniable. and i think we ...

Them, like i said, not want to play the game anymore. make it too hard for them to engage in this criminal activity. >> director clapper, does that all sound right to you? >> yes, it does. what this -- what i think chris is suggesting here is not just a whole of government approach but a whole society approach. and clearly private concerns need to step it up on defense. but i think the government needs to go on the offense here more and use more of the tools that are available to it. to chris' point, he's exactly right about if you dry up the funding and make it difficult for ransomware to be ...