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Programs in the inner city to try and stop crime, but in fact, it had no effect whatsoever. >> paul: so, this dramatic change, what does this tell you about policing policy going forward is this what should we focus on? >> it's a very optimistic story, paul. it shows that the government can create safety for its citizens by enforcing the rule of law, but it's also a cautionary tale. if crimes starts going up, it will be because cities rashly cut their police force and start emptying prisons. we've had a five-fold incarceration. >> you think that incarceration, no question in your mind that inc...

Programs in the inner city to try and stop crime, but in fact, it had no effect whatsoever. >> paul: so, this dramatic change, what does this tell you about policing policy going forward is this what should we focus on? >> it's a very optimistic story, paul. it shows that the government can create safety for its citizens by enforcing the rule of law, but it's also a cautionary tale. if crimes starts going up, it will be because cities rashly cut their police force and start emptying prisons. we've had a five-fold incarceration. >> you think that incarceration, no question in your mind that inc...

Programs in the inner city to try and stop crime, but in fact, it had no effect whatsoever. >> paul: so, this dramatic change, what does this tell you about policing policy going forward is this what should we focus on? >> it's a very optimistic story, paul. it shows that the government can create safety for its citizens by enforcing the rule of law, but it's also a cautionary tale. if crimes starts going up, it will be because cities rashly cut their police force and start emptying prisons. we've had a five-fold incarceration. >> you think that incarceration, no question in your mind that inc...