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I met with zelensky and much of that meeting was dedicated to this topic, how do we get zelensky in front of trump, break down this impasse? at the time we knew the aid had been withheld but we didn't know for certain the extortion campaign was being effectuated by the ukraine team. the number one priority for zelensky was getting in front of this president so he could try to get the president what he wanted because this was life and death for zelensky. he had soldiers dying on the front in eastern ukraine because the united states wasn't there to support them. and so this wasn't a matter that...

Meeting. then when the president met with putin instead of meeting with them i guess in warsaw, that was to them, a signal that if we don't do what they're asking to us do, we may see him move towards russia. >> so what happened was that trump was supposed to go to warsaw and meet with jezelensky. he did not. he thought it was a message. i met with zelensky and much of that meeting was dedicated to this topic, how do we get zelensky in front of trump, break down this impasse? at the time we knew the aid had been withheld but we didn't know for certain the extortion campaign was being effectuat...

And ukraine, and the case as you have noted relies on gordon sondland. he's testifying on wednesday in an open hearing. now, as you noted, sondland has already amended his closed-door testimony once. he didn't mention anything about this july 26th phone call between trump and sondland that david holmes testified about on friday. david holmes says he heard president trump pushing for the investigations. is gordon sondland a credible witness, and if not, how can democrats rely on his testimony? >> well, gordon sondland clearly didn't tell the truth in his initial testimony. and i don't know why ...

. >> sure. a central issue as you alluded to is whether withholding this was part of his broader extortion campaign that he was engaged in. what mark sandy can help explain, why were career officials cut out of the process? what exactly was the white house trying to hide? this is something we have seen time and time again in this impeachment inquiry. honest career officials are pushed aside so they don't impede corruption. we saw last week how it was going on at the state department. mark sandy can explain the office of management and budget at the white house. >> you worked with him. we see t...

Extortion campaign. so we didn't talk about the details of sondland and volker's communications during that meeting. >> at what point -- basically, senator johnson's basic argument is the following. this should be a political discussion and a political argument and a political debate. he's not alone in thinking that. and that's not just a partisan defense. there are some in the middle watching this show going i don't like what he did, but it's too close to the election. what do you say? >> let me tell you why this is different. the president was trying to use the power of his office to influen...