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Manafort and rick gates. these men are under indictment for money laundering charges and failure to register as a foreign lobbyist. this lawyer has pleaded guilty to making a false statement about his conversations with gates and what experts tell me, witnesses lie to investigators all the time. they don't often prosecute and file these charges. they do so when they want something out of the witness. it stands to reason this young lawyer has something to give about paul manafort and rick gates because the ultimate end game is for mueller to flip manafort and get him to talk about what he knows...

Against trump's former campaign chairman. even if you were to fire mueller, which i don't think he will, that indictment is still there. that case still has to go to trial. this investigation now has so much momentum that it's pointless to think about -- >> that indictment -- sorry. right now is not necessarily campaign related. think mller is trying to flip manafort. >> i'm sure he is trying to flip him but remember, that indictment charges a conspiracy that includes the time when manafort was the campaign chairman. so to say it's unrelated i think is not -- >> well -- i think it's just wrong...

Be good because even his supporters are not happy with his tweets. as to manafort, i think it's also important to keep in mind when we look at how aggressive mueller is being that he may be trying to flip manafort. so that depends on whether manafort actually has some interesting knowledge of some of these actions. we don't know that because he wasn't there during some of the key times. but he does have, from everything that we've learned about him, some very potential legal liabilities in terms of money laundering and foreign representation that could get him in legal trouble so that there's ...

Aggressively to flip manafort. >> i want to ask you more about other "new york times" reporting, specifically the comment by ty cobb, the president's attorney, specifically brought into a deal with the questions about russia. he said that the white house counsel, don mcgahn, has a couple documents locked in a safe. what kind of information would mcgahn have in a safe that he wouldn't be sharing with the rest of the legal team? >> well, i will tell you my first thought was something from an earlier "new york times" piece where they talked about how don mcgahn saw an early draft of a letter that...

Letter it's very likely they will indict him unless he decides to cooperate. >> go ahead. >> yeah. i have a very similar answer. what i would say is that this indicates both to me. it certainly indicates, as john said, that mueller is intending to indict manafort, but the fact that he is telegraphing that to manafort in an aggressive way is something that is fairly commonly done in my experience when you are trying to flip someone. and so really one thing that i took from that new york times story is that mueller is trying very aggressively to flip manafort. >> okay. let's talk -- i want to as...