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He's never going to testify. he's going to get subpoenaed to the grand jury. they're not going to allow him written questions. he's not going to appear on an informal sit-down. and he shouldn't. it's going to force mueller to subpoena him to a grand jury. and that's when you're going to see all the law schools in the country are going to go crazy here. we are going to see things for the first time. we don't know how it's going to end, fred, nobody knows yet. >> all right, avery. >> i absolutely think this is a magnificent final exam question at law school. you know what, there is a constitutio...

To force mueller's hand to issue the subpoena. you would think that's the worst outcome for this president, to publicly be forced to come before mueller. >> and the argument that they're making, which is that this would be a so-called perjury trap for the president, is the exact same one that bill clinton's defenders made of him in 1998. and then, as now, it seems to me to be a little bit self-undermining because in fact, the president can't be trapped into lying under oath. that is entirely his decision. and these allies are expressing their own concern that this president's not an honest man...

That may be the most dangerous part of all of this. >> surely, people are starting to get spooked. they're not sure how much longer they'll last. but i would also point out, there are people in all different agencies within this government who probably don't necessarily work in the white house who are probably very scared right now to be associated with this administration in any respect. >> sam, there's reporting, obviously, that there is now a white house official close to the president under investigation, which is incredible to imagine. and then more reporting tonight from reuters that the...