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Gates for putting so much of that together. >> assuming it's not a crime to unwittingly hire at least alleged tax evaders and admit it on the part of gates, greg, does the president truly have nothing to fear other than bad optics? >> no. i think there's potentially a lot more than that. and all of that, of course, is in the background of the investigation. as you mentioned, it's not something that this jury is going to hear about. it's not a focus of these particular charges in this trial. it's part of the background. i'm assuming that the mueller team wants to get this narrow case out of the...

Cross? >> i agree with shan. if the prosecution does its job, there will be nothing left for the jury to be surprised by. nothing that the jury hasn't heard in terms of negative information about rick gates, his crimes and past lying, so i think what the defense is left with is nothing more than reiterating and getting mr. gates to repeat over and over that he lied repeatedly, and in closing arguments, trying to emphasize to the jury that this is san admitted liar, that you -- this is an admitted liar, that you cannot believe him. if the prosecution does its job, and this is prosecution 101, t...

Our justice correspondent jessica schneider is here, former u.s. attorney greg bower joining me. and analyst xian wu. lay out your representation previously of rick gates so it's on the table. >> right. we had represented rick from the time that he was indicted to just before he pled guilt et etetch -- guilty. the guilty plea and illegal operation i was not involved in. and everything i talk about is on the record. nothing confidential or privileged. >> understood. building on that, what do you make of the prosecution's strategy of laying out the serious crimes that rick gates now admits to, j...

Mouth. it's a very grim process. the decision a defense attorney to sit his client down is one of the toughest decisions defense attorneys make. >> i heard you laughing. you've been on the other side of this. you've been in on those interviews, what danny described there. >> i would agree, 100%. i would imagine that i've never had a conversation like that during my time as u.s. attorney with one of my ausa's because they would never bring to me the offer. it's a nonstarter even at the ausa level. i think unfortunately for mr. giuliani, and this is a dangerous thing and a high stakes matter lik...

Except by crooked hillary and the democrats. >> this weekend, the debate over whether or not president trump will sit down for an interview with the special counsel and his team comes to a head. rudy giuliani telling nbc news he's spending saturday and sunday coming up with the response to robert mueller's latest request for an interview. joining us now, former u.s. attorney greg bower and legal analyst danny cevallos. just out with this piece, great headline, encapsulating where we are. trump at a precarious moment in his presidency privately brooding and publicly roaring. greg, let me start ...