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Maybe they don't know what a chief of staff's job is. do they see this as, okay, this was what the president was focused on, this is what the chief of staff does. so wasn't he doing that in his capacity? >> is that relevant? >> i think it is relevant in the way that shan described. it's relevant to a jury, who might be thinking, hey, this guy was just following orders. he didn't know. but that's not what the standard is he's facing right now. he's trying to convince a judge that he was within the legal scope of his authority as chief of staff. even though it's a low bar, and most high ranking ...

Democratic area. where meadows is concerned, this looks like a gambit by his attorneys. they're trying to get this into federal court, so as tim explained, they can ask the judge to dismiss the case entirely on immunity grounds. they're making a very narrow argument, saying that meadows is unlike even trump, in that he never gets to take off his chief of staff hat, even when he's visiting his kids, the argument apparently goes he's out looking for information in response to trump's questions. so he'll try to distinguish his position in that way and hope for that dismissal. i think if he doesn'...