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Investigation?in i mean, do democrats really think this rises to that level? >> laura: they don't care. >> it's absolutely ridiculous. >> laura: robert, really quickly, this idea they are going to haul micky mulvaney or any member of the white house counsel, any official that doesn't want -- it's ludicrous, and now they're going to add that to an impeachment article? an article of impeachment, obstruction? really quick, robert. >> that is a process, and the american people are not going to be deceived or affected by the notion that in a separation of powers question, you are going to turn that...

Think this rises to that level? >> laura: they don't care. >> it's absolutely ridiculous. >> laura: robert, really quickly, this idea they are going to haul mick mulvaney or any member of the house white house counsel, any officil that doesn't want -- it's ludicrous, and now they're going to add that to an impeachment article? an article of impeachment, obstruction? really quick, robert. >> that is a process, and the american people are not going to be deceived or affected by the notion that in a separation of powers question, you are going to turn that into an impeachable offense. that's also...

Policies. so that's a stonewalling of congress that is an impeachment article in my mind. you of course have the obstruction by the president saying nobody can testify, i'm not cooperating. you certainly have all the obstruction that you had during the watergate case. in this case, all of the meetings that led up to the july phone call between zelensky and trump, you have the shadow foreign policy of someone who is not part of the state department but who all the state department officials felt was interfering in the normal policies and processes of the state department. it's a really clear ca...

Hope of getting his impeachment affirmed as to say by conviction in the senate. everybody said it's clear that the senate will not do this. i think it's very unlikely the senate would do this. after all, the president -- that there are 53 republicans in the senate. the president can lose 19 of them. 19. and still survive in office. so a lot of this is about trying to protect his democrats and still proceed with this impeachment inquiry and it's about trying to win over some republicans in the senate and a majority of them can go against him and he still survives so, you know, i think the presi...

Today's sound bite world, a simpler impeachment article is probably going to be more effective. >> interesting. so, your lesson from johnson, not stipulating where you fall on these issues, but your lesson is if you do want to impeach a president, as many in congress are on record of wanting to do, you say simple and fewer articles? >> number of articles, i'm not as interested in. i do think an article should be clear and simple and easy to understand. this is a political process. nobody is going to vote for impeachment unless they think the voters want it, or at least most of them won't. you ...