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But that's a dangerous game, if the president engages in a pardon, that could be more fodder for the mueller team to think about the pardon as a tool of obstruction. of course, hands on a silver platter to the house of representatives, an issue to explore the oversight mechanism. in the same way that congress has overseen other presidential pardons. also, if we get to the point down the road, and obviously, we're not there yet, where impeachment is discussed. impeachment is the one thing that can trump unintended -- trump a pardon. >> when you're a fed, bumping up against a possible pardon mus...

Posturing, that i'm tough, i'm not bending or yielding to the prosecutorial pressure here. but that's a dangerous game, if the president engages in a pardon, that could be more fodder for the mueller team to think about the pardon as a tool of obstruction. of course, hands on a silver platter to the house of representatives, an issue to explore the oversight mechanism. in the same way that congress has overseen other presidential pardons. also, if we get to the point down the road, and obviously, we're not there yet, where impeachment is discussed. impeachment is the one thing that can trump u...

Dangerous game, because if the president engages in a pardon, that could be more fodder for the mueller team to think about the pardon as a tool of obstruction. of course, it hands on a silver platter to the house of representatives an issue to explore the oversight mechanism the way the pardon power was used in the same way that congress has overseen other presidential pardons. also, if we get to the point down the road, and obviously, we're not there yet, where impeachment is discussed. impeachment is the one thing that can trump unintended -- trump a pardon. >> and, barrett, when you're a p...

Was there a flawed culture within the blank? -- bank? >> well, the very act of not correcting the problem affected the culture. my guess is the culture -- everything i know about it, and i don't claim intimate knowledge, the culture was pretty good. and the incentive system corrupted people. if you leave the petty cash of a large number right near the door, you are going to -- some people are going to succumb to that that otherwise would behave pretty well. when other people see people succumbing to it, they will do it. cultures shift. you can affect that culture. you can't affect it in a hurr...

Terrible mistake. and every great institution makes -- if you employ 360,000 people like we do or 280,000 like they do -- but they made a particularly egregious mistake. >> this was part of the culture. it was pervasive. and it lasted for years. >> it was a dumb incentive system which when they found out it was dumb, they didn't do anything about it. if you put in incentives, incentives have terrific power to do good things and bad things. everybody uses incentives, people use them with their children. but if you find out incentives are producing perverse behavior to what you intended, you hav...