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>> mr. director, it's willie geist, good to see you. the president is calling this spygate. he believes the president infiltrated his campaign to spy on him, you say it was to see how russia may be influencing the russians. you said the other day that they were spying on, a term i don't particularly like. what's a spy? what's an informant? what's the distinction for you. >> for me -- everybody has their own narrative on this as you well know, but for me if you're going to use the term spy which i never have liked, but let's assume it's a valid term, to me that suggests using intelligence trade...

Them, the unwitting part is interesting because i wonder if they realize they were maybe being played or used or manipulated by force that's they weren't even aware of. >> right. i mean it is a part -- part of intelligence trade craft is to essentially get people to do what you want them to do without them not necessarily knowing it. i do think that it becomes harder to suggest that people weren't doing it knowingly when you start getting into things like accepting financial transactions and payments. and this is where you see some of the financial issues with paul manifort. they do have a rel...

>> right. i mean it is a part -- part of intelligence trade craft is to essentially get people to do what you want them to do without them not necessarily knowing it. i do think that it becomes harder to suggest that people weren't doing it knowingly when you start getting into things like accepting financial transactions and payments. and this is where you see some of the financial issues with paul manifort. they do have a relationship with the counter intelligence aspect to the investigation. >> what do we know about him? >> something urgent. the minute he came to this country, they got a wa...

Of the implications that it helder if other agencies running the software or contractors or employees might have it at home and the kind of school tools and the computer code the nsa uses to spy on other countries. i mean, if you like, analogize them to the tools for spying or the methods for spying. when this kind of thing gets into an adversary's hands, it tells them how to defend their networks to gain information from them and potentially to take the tools and use them against other countries, maybe even against us. it's the kind of thing that you protect as a basic element of intelligence...

Against other countries, maybe even against us. it's the kind of thing that you protect as a basic element of intelligence trade craft. >> yeah. the sort of thing you want only there's an enthusiastic, unified aware whole of government approach toward recognizing that threat, defending against it and honest with the american people of the seriousness of the intent behind this kind of attack and i will not ask you to comment on that because you don't deserve it. shane harris, national security reporter for "the wall street journal," thank you for helping us understand this scary, scary reportin...