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This one is important. he was at the center of everything for that short period of time that he was on the campaign. but he really was at the center of it. he wasn't some peripheral figure. if anyone in the trump orbit has the capacity to collude with the russian government, it's paul manafort. with the russian oligarchs and people close to putin. >> he was offering briefings to -- >> to deripaska who he owed a lot of money to. he's a very important figure in all of this. and mueller's strategy worked. mueller took old charges that had nothing to do with the campaign way before and used it to ...

Everything for that short period of time that he was on the campaign. but he really was at the center of it. he wasn't some peripheral figure. if anyone in the trump orbit has the capacity to collude with the russian gfrkovernment, it's pau manafort. with the russian oligarchs and people close to putin. >> he was offering briefings to -- >> to deripaska who he owed a lot of money to. he's a very important figure in all of this. and mueller's strategy worked. mueller took old charges that had nothing to do with the campaign way before and used it to squeeze him. and it worked. he's flipped. >> ...

Like several times. >> just imagine you're trump, jon. just -- >> yes, i do it every day. >> should have been the audio book. >> they should have brought you in for that. you read that quote. yeah, but -- sorry. >> we can't rule out that he pardons manafort, but i think he'd want to see what happens first. >> impeachment. >> but i've given up trying to predict trump. this is a big development. but i don't think we're -- i think democrats also need to wait and see. let's not get too far ahead of ourselves with talk of impeachment. >> i love watching all of this. i'm always looking at the politi...

It goes. so far it hasn't made much of an impact in his standing in the polls however. >> jon, as far as his quiet manner is concerned, in your interview you said he spoke so quietly you were worried your tape recorder wasn't going to pick it up. >> that's right. we were sitting in an suv. there was a bag between us. and i -- i don't think i've ever had to do this where i am in a car and i have to hold my phone, my recorder like three inches from his face because otherwise the noise from the -- coming from outside the car was going to drown out his voice. he was very soft-spoken. not a lot of ...

And i -- i don't think i've ever had to do this where i am in a car and i have to hold my phone, my recorder like three inches from his face because otherwise the noise from the -- coming from outside the car was going to drown out his voice. he was very soft-spoken. not a lot of eye contact. not a lot of smiles. yeah, so, pretty small personality in that situation. >> the mandatory reading tonight about the new republican front-runner in iowa, the political education of ben carson, jon ward, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> thanks for having me. coming up next, what is the wor...