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Obstruct, and not merely, hey, you've asked us about a pardon. here's how a pardon would work. but understand they've got sources and methods that we don't -- we aren't privy to right now. my guess is those sources and methods are telling them this probably was about obstruction. and if that's true, if that's true, we could see dowd exposed criminally. >> i want to bring everyone back in time because this is reporting about conversations that took place between mr. dowd and the attorney who was then representing paul manafort, who i believe is no longer his counsel. is that right, mark? >> tha...

Contributor slot in a week or two, i think this is way bigger than the pension conversation. rob: let's go back, wendy, do you think that there's -- does he have credibility at this point, does andrew mccabe have credibility, it almost sounds like a conspiracy theory, a wild conspiracy theory, an assault on the fbi, i don't know how he gets there from what we know, where does he make that kind of accusation, how does he get to that? >> well, i think it's important that we all wait to make judgment until we see the inspector general's report because that's what's going underscore what happened ...

Has been looked at for leaking. so he's also somebody that they believe leaked information on the dossier to the media to get that ball rolling. it just really appears on its face that all of the evidence pointed to the fact. i know mccabe is blaming trump but all of these people were ready to take trump out and wanted to. >> let's go back, professor dershowitz, to the strzok and page text that captured the attention of the american people. they were going back and forth, insurance policies. clearly they were worried. not overly worried but look, we have to make sure this doesn't happen. have ...

Bias in favor of trump and against clinton. but they didn't act on their bias. they didn't send messages to each other on their bias. i think the more we learn, the better it is for america and we have to make sure that the fbi goes back to being a nonpartisan neutral objective investigative agency, not an agency that decides who to prosecute but uncovers the evidence and presents it to prosecutors. we've lost that role of the fbi and we have to regain it. it's one of the most important lessons that we can learn from this tragedy. >> let's go back to jake gibson on the phone now. >> i just wan...

Against clinton. but they didn't act on their bias. they didn't send messages to each other on their bias. i think the more we learn, the better it is for america and we have to make sure that the fbi goes back to being a nonpartisan neutral objective investigative agency, not an agency that decides who to prosecute but uncovers the evidence and presents it to prosecutors. we've lost that role of the fbi and we have to regain it. it's one of the most important lessons that we can learn from this tragedy. >> let's go back to jake gibson on the phone now. >> i just wanted to make a point, laura....