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Over. it's a pr nightmare and they're both real and perceived threats to this. but i think that they have to act like they're going to or else all the leverage is gone. >> well, there's various points of leverage here right now. you say it's a pr nightmare if we go over it. if there's a debt default, that's more than a pr nightmare. that's an economic catastrophe. >> i said real and perceived. >> that affects everybody. if you move beyond the debt ceiling, if you can take that aspect of it off the table and look for a different leverage point, republican haves two here. one is the sequester. w...

For $1 trillion in increasing the debt ceiling and so that is our next leverage point. it is a shame that in this nation where every developed country in the world knows that our greatest threat is our fiscal solvency that you have to have the leverage points. you would think that people would just sit down, solve the problem because we know it is our greatest threat. but that is not the case here. we have a president who has not laid out a plan. obviously a spend-aholic. he doesn't really worry about the growth of government and so we have to use these leverage points to try to do those thing...

Before august 2nd? >> there was a technical default around the debt ceiling back in 1979. and that was just a mistake where they literally used to send out the checks and the checks got there a little bit late a day or two late and just from that, without all the politics around it and the game of chicken going on, we saw 60 basis points spike in treasury bonds from that alone. that gives us some warning that this is not something to play around with. >> for our viewers who don't trade in treasury bonds, 60 basis points increase, .6% affects your credit cards. it affects your loans, affects a ...