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Fundraising that went on after the election? what's important here i think is we're seeing them drilling down onto this question to ask a very specific question, which is? how are these email solicitations? how are they crafted? how are they written? how are they changed and edited? and what were the people making those pitches for money saying to each other about about these claims. because there's one comparison case where you could say. that the claims that were being made the appeal is being made for money were being made by people who in some ways may have known that they were not telling...

Of this? >> let's step back for a second. this was always going to be a very difficult case to prove. on the criminal front. right, you need direct knowledge of wrongdoing to be -- to show that donald trump or someone else made material misrepresentations about their financial documents, that were relied on by banks, insurance companies, or tax entities. and the problem in getting to donald trump has always been that he doesn't email or text, so you basically need a cooperating witness and allen weisselberg wasn't cooperating, they took a run at him and he said no. notwithstanding everything h...

Organization. but in a criminal case, you have to show that the individuals knowingly made these misrepresentations, so it is not just enough to show that there were these misrepresentations made, you have to show that a particular to show that particur individuals who were charged knew about them and made them and so donald trump needs to be, you need to show that he was involved in making misrepresentations and it's not good enough to just say, oh, he was the boss. of course he knew. you actually need direct evidence in court, admissible evidence, to be able to show that he did knowingly mak...

Trump after he lost the election. the lawyers have been fighting to get access to his e-mails from that time period. meanwhile on capitol hill, press secretary, judd deer, is expected to testify before the committee. joining me is former federal prosecutor, paul butler, and also an msnbc legal analyst and pete williams. >> at this point the goal is to try and get their mitts on what easeman doesn't want them to see. the attorney/client privilege does not apply on how to commit a crime and the committee says there were three crimes, obstructing of the proceeding, and conspiracy to defraud the f...

And natasha bertrand from the atlantic and contributor and katie benner justice department reporter at "the new york times" and barb mcquade. and natasha, i'll start with you. as you watch the back and forth with the president making misrepresentations as we started this hour with, as well as now addressing the idea of pardon directly. >> yeah, it is pretty remarkable. i think that we're kind of losing sight of the big picture here in this back and forth that michael cohen and donald trump have had which is the president admitted that he discussed pardons with michael cohen just after the fbi ...