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To carry out, meaning expensive to the people who use medicare, you impose much, much higher costs on the people who use medicare. that's your plan for saving medicare spending, is by making the users of medicare pay much more. and what the president is saying is that the amount of money they need to pay matches the amount of money that will be then given back to top income tax pairs like the president. >> you see, i don't think that's true at all. >> it is true, congressman. >> there are no changes to medicare for people over 5. and we are looking at a plan to save medicare and medicaid that ...

Can you find some middle ground? there's such a wide gulf on taxes and medicare, anderson, i don't see that being resolved before the 2012 election. >> do you agree with that? >> i wonder. i agree with what david is saying in principle, except for this. on taxes, in the republican party continues to take an absolutely theological position that you simply cannot have any tax increases, and if we mean no elimination of loopholes and deductions, the math doesn't work. we're taking in 18% of gdp at taxation and spending 23%. you've got to close that gap. doing it all through budget cuts is impossi...