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No crime. critics say officers unfairly target minorities. let's talk to ellis. he lives in new york. and he is a columnist for "newsday." and michael balbone. good to see you as well. so just so people aren't confused, we're talking about a federal court judge who said this policy is unconstitutional, but an appellate court said we have a problem with this judge. so essentially the stop-and-frisk policy continues in new york city, and that's would we're going to talk about right now, the future of it, how it is executed, et cetera. so michael, you first. you know, you say it is -- we were in ...

>> so if only 1 in 500, as you say, results in someone being in possession of a gun, then why is this a policy that continues to be used? it doesn't seem like that is bringing the kinds of results that were intended from this policy. it would seem that the makers of this policy might be embarrassed that the numbers are as you reflect. ellis. >> well, listen. there's no evidence, firm data, that actually says that it's working. on the other hand, you know what? it's popular. people -- and some people -- and michael would be an example of this -- like the ideas of police sticking their hands in ...