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Norquist pledge says that you have to have equal tax cuts to offset, that in other words, keep government like norquist likes to say in the bathtub. he doesn't like it to get too big. i think in that way you might see some republicans violate that pledge but i think it's a muj harder pledge to get them to agree to an increase in tax increases like the president wants. >> you guys in the first read team, political team at msnbc point out that it would allow effective tax rates to rise for the wealthy without raising the tax rate for 35%. another was on who said for many of these lawmakers it is...

Senator chambliss is saying, i'm frankly not concerned about the norquist pledge. i'm quoting him there. senator mccain, quote, fewer and fewer people are signing this, quote, pledge. senator coburn, tortured vision of this tax penalty is his quote. they're openly moving away from this tax pledge of norquist. that's a sign of something. >> i think it is. i was just on a tv show with freshman republican from my state, illinois, who said he signed that pledge initially when he was running but now he says the only pledge he wants to sign or that he'll sign up with is his oath of office. his pledg...

But look, grover norquist, the anti-tax crusader, made -- didn't make them, but 258 republicans signed a no tax hike pledge that includes you can't do the loophole thing, you can't raise marginal rates. he's a powerful guy. >> he is. >> but given the election is he dead in the water now? >> i wouldn't say he's dead in the water but if the republican party goes to him, they are resigned to permanently lose elections. bottom line the norquist pledge is not relevant given the debt and deficit that we have, the need to raise rates potentially as well as cutting loopholes and balancing the budget. ...

A new team and a lot of people will say that is a good thing because you need some fresh. these guys are so tired. >> all right. the other hill headline, norquist pledge takes election hit. i consider that good news. is it good news for republicans, actually? >> well, that's part of what the gop is going through. the soul searching of thinking about the glove pledge hasn't helped them. and obviously now, it's such a different position for republicans after president obama's victory in 2009, republicans fought. they fought the stimulus, fought the health care. now it's a more conciliatory tone ...

That's exactly what has produced the infamous 47% who don't pay income taxes. and one of the other things that i have seen develop over time in the think tank world or the thinking of the right which is articulated in romney's 47% comment is the idea that not only, you know, everyone's always wanted to cut taxes, republican party, governor norquist pledge. you need to raise taxes at the bottom and middle class. the tax center says that's what the romney plan does. romney says absolutely not. in the republican party, their plans would do that. there is a lot of ichblt lek actual thinking in the...