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With an outside entity that has to deal with some of the activity of people still at the department of justice and fbi. >> i think they make a good point because the utah federal prosecutor san in fact seek indictments, can bring charges for something that michael horowitz in the ig office cannot do. >> exactly. what michael horowitz has going for him is he is good before congress for decades. complaining about some of the problems, showing us some of the things wrong at department of justice. including double standards for how they enforce harassment in the workplace. other things of that sor...

To deal with some of the activity of people still at the department of justice and fbi. >> i think they make a good point because the utah federal prosecutor san in fact seek indictments, can bring charges for something that michael horowitz in the ig office cannot do. >> exactly. what michael horowitz has going for him is he is good before congress for decades. complaining about some of the problems, showing us some of the things wrong at department of justice. including double standards for how they enforce harassment in the workplace. other things of that sort. and so, congress should give ...

To accept the pardon? >> i'll answer your last question first, which is, acting like a check on the system. you mentioned about how he's an older man and people who are detained weren't showing that kind of sympathy, basically. to people questioning what is going on here, it wasn't about racial profiling. there's a lot of misinformation about that. this was a conviction for defying an order that said that the sheriffs office cannot enforce federal immigration law, that they were not deputized as federal immigration officers. when the sheriff office got that order, they didn't understand it bec...

It's a witch hunt. the entire thing has been a witch-hunt. so witch-hunt continues. >> how many people are going to follow this president into a war against mueller? joining me now charlie sykes msnbc political analyst and author of how the right lost its mind. and hue hewitt host of saturday mornings right here on msnbc. hugh, i'm going to start with you. how do you defend the rudy giuliani comments? he all but admits that the campaign f offered, wanted to commit a crime? >> it is not a legal strategy. it is a political strategy. it is not a good political strategy. it is a good legal strateg...