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He's not comfortable in small groups, but -- and i do think that's hurt him with the electorate. but i think peggy noonan framed this several months ago better than anybody else has. i don't think the question's going to be how -- what did he inherit and how are we doing now? the question is, did he make things worse? >> right. >> and i think that -- if i were running and steve, we'll get to you in a second. but if i were running, i could make a really strong economy t-at he took a bad economy and now, steve would disagree with me. but i think this is the issue of the campaign. >> right. if we...

Doesn't the public look -- you know, if you're talking about $20 billion they're fighting over with a budget of $3.8 trillion, doesn't the public look at them and say, you know, a pox on both your houses and everybody loses from this? >> absolutely. and that's why i think the white house may be making a mistake in assuming that if there is a shutdown that the democrats will benefit just as they did in the mid-90s when president clinton was in office fighting against newt gingrich and republicans. as you'll remember, that shutdown absolutely paid off for the president. and so there's that sort ...