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This was his last shot and the only leverage he really had was cooperation. and i think robert mueller stood firm until i got that cooperation. and he has not kept every case that exists out there, he has not kept michael cohen, he spun that off to others. but he did keep this paul manafort case because i think mueller knows that manafort has very valuable information to give. >> geoff bennett, i want to ask you about the decision here for paul manafort to do this. a bit of tape here from august 23, this is president trump talking on fox news about his one time campaign manager. let's take a l...

But you've got to think that that itself, were there a pardon dangle, is subject of mueller's inquiries as well. >> i would think he'd want to know. i have to say in terms of this trial though, there is one loser, which is the american public. this is what we would have seen if this were to go to trial is actually a much more public outlay of evidence that much more closely ties the campaign to russian conspiracy. >> norm, final question to you on this question of the sort of the pardon or the specter of it. there are some who argue that that power is absolute. and ergo cannot be abused in an ...

Really don't know what is. so i think there's a mountain of evidence. whether it's enough to charge or to impeach, that's a judgment that can only be made once you've really seen the evidence in detail and scrutinized it. >> let me ask you to react what we saw this week, the president pardons dinesh d'souza. it hasn't been reviewed in the fashion most pardons are reviewed. dinesh didn't even file an application to be pardoned. you've written about a pardon dangle. you had john dowd going to lawyers for michael flynn and paul manafort raising the specter, reportedly, of a pardon. what do you ma...