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White house lawyer who is responsible for the pardon process. so that sort of puts this in a whole different category when you are looking at it from the criminal perspective. and the one other point i would say that does make it remarkable, regardless of whether it could be part of a technical obstruction of justice charge, it goes to the whole consciousness of guilt that we keep coming back to of what are they trying to hide and why. what were they so afraid of it? i know you asked that and many people have weighed in on that and -- but it is certainly making it clear that they are afraid of...

President's side at this time. so it is -- there is a sort of unbelievability to it that he wouldn't have known. but that is yet to be determined. >> what about the pardons? the reporting from both the "times" and confirmed by the washington post said that john dowd up until last week had been talking to manaforts and flynn's lawyer in the time that the investigation was closing in on them and said, hey, listen, we could have a presidential pardon. how big of a deal is that? >> i think the most important part about that reporting is that it was dowd and not mcgahn talking about pardons. don mc...

Chair, orrin hatch and myself, ranking democrat, agreeing to set in motion a process to obtain the tax return, have the finance committee look it over if get them to go along, yes would be a policy for making them public. i say respectfully, not been able to get republican support. >> it's a concrete action they can take if concerned where this is headed. also about the president's power to pardon federal crimes is well nigh absolute, if he were to do it and many think that's manafort's angle here, what could congress or people do? >> i feel this pardon issue is not unlike firing bob mueller. ...

Also about the president's power to pardon federal crimes is well nigh absolute, if he were to do it and many think that's manafort's angle here, what could congress or people do? >> i feel this pardon issue is not unlike firing bob mueller. if you're even looking at that, thinking about the pardon process at this point, i think you're going to be triggering a constitutional crisis, i think would be a big mistake. many republicans in the senate have said that they would be for bob mueller. i've been telling them, speak out right now, it's going to be important to protect bob mueller's right to...

And there's been no contrition, and there's still in the press statements today, no contrition said he was railroaded in a witch hunt by legacy obama people, not further from the truth. >> claiming he's the victim here. american civil liberties union calls this pardon a presidential endorsement of racism. what message do you pick up from this pardon? >> well, so, i think in pure legal terms, it is sort of a denigration of the rule of law. that is, two judges found this fellow in contempt of the fourth amendment and rights of the individuals of that county, and when a president without going th...