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Manafort company in cyprus. and then another to a company named after manafort's daughter which in the past has been used to buy real estate for members of his family, i think you get a much clearer picture of what we're talking about instead of some sort of complicate d offshore finances. >> richard, is it clear to you if these are actual loans, if this is money that deripaska is shifting to manafort and expecting it back? they are listed -- you make clear in the reporting they are listed as loans. is it possible these aren't loans, just a money transfer and designed to look like a loan for t...

Offshore finances. >> richard, is it clear to you if these are actual loans, if this is money that deripaska is shifting to manafort and is expecting it back? they are listed -- you make clear in the reporting they are listed as loans. is it possible these aren't loans, that this is just a money transfer and designed to look like a loan for tax purposes or some other convenient financial reason? >> reporter: so we've spoken to experts, people -- former experts at the department of justice, and they say that using loans look this and particularly self-loans is a tool used by money launderers an...

If these are actual loans, if this is money that deripaska is shifting to manafort and expecting it back? they are listed -- you make clear in the roeporting they ar listed as loans. is it possible these aren't loans, just a money transfer and designed to look like a loan for tax purposes or some other convenient financial reason? >> reporter: so we've spoken to experts at people at the former experts of the department of justice and they say that using loans like this and particularly self loans is a tool used by money launderrors and raises flags. we don't no if they were loans or payments. ...