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Every aspect of it has been attempted to be covered up by donald trump and those around him. he has been truthful about nothing having to do with this meeting. why? because, indeed, it's indicative of collusion. now, is this the one time perhaps now that mr. cohen has said this that donald trump is telling the truth about this meeting and that he did not know of it in advance where he has lied about every other aspect of it almost? it's possible, i suppose. but you and others have run through the chronology of what occurred and what he said three days after the invitation was extended and his ...

Scale of 10 maybe. >> what's also interesting about cohen's story on this, and again, if it turns out to be true, he claims there are other people present who heard that as well. so if they're under oath, i guess they could back up what cohen has to say. >> and if it turns out there are no other people, that will affect his credibility as well. >> right. >> but i think the big picture is that even if everything he says is true, it's not a crime. you know, in my new book, "case against impeaching trump," i set out a hypothetical based on this possibility, a hypothetical. even if the president a...

Is that even if everything he says is true, it's not a crime. you know, in my new book, "case against impeaching trump," i set out a hypothetical based on this possibility, a hypothetical. even if the president actively sought material dirt on hillary clinton, terrible thing, but even if he sought it, but the dirt had already been gathered, and he wasn't asking them to hack the dnc or do anything criminal, that would not be a crime. it would show, quote, perhaps collusion. but there is nothing in the federal code that makes collusion itself a crime. >> well, professor, about those tapes, you t...

This meeting, if in fact he knew about it at the time, shows that all of those statements, every time he said no collusion, is a lie. so it's not just sort of a random lie about the size of the inauguration crowd. it's lying about his involvement with the russian government in the campaign. >> and carl, if a meeting was squeaky clean with nothing improper, why have there been so many iterations to, you know, to who is there, who knew about it, what exactly took place, what the whole purpose was? >> let's be clear about this meeting. this meeting was convened for the purposes of colluding. that...

Federal investigators. it is a crime to lie to them. michael cohen has not yet been contacted by them as far as we know. how that plays out remains to be seen. >> jeff, donald trump, the president has never under oath about this meeting. so there is no law he would have broken. if he is lying, he is just lying to the american public and reporters. >> correct. although donald trump jr. may have a problem because he under oath to congressional committee said he did not discuss this with his father in advance. so if michael cohen is telling the truth, donald trump jr. may have a problem. but it's...