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8-1 in some states even, and they needed delegates. and lewandowski was completely unprepared for a delegate fight. i don't believe -- i don't know, but i could tell you that -- i can tell you that ukraine wasn't the issue. it was losing your nomination at the skroension. >> but ukraine -- okay, quickly, there's also a lot of witness intimidation that's spelled out in the indictment, and i'll give you one of them. on multiple occasions, including on or about december 1, 2017, stone told person two, randy credico should do a frank tan gellie before the house select committee on intelligence to ...

And i think what mueller was doing was sending a message to roger stone. if this is how the criminal justice system treats people who are presumed to be innocent, imagine what happens if you're convicted of a crime your dude paul manafort, he's sitting in solitary confinement right now. if you don't want that result, you are looking right now at jail for the rest of your life you better think about making a deal with us >> interesting betsy, you know, the other thing was, you know, roger stone, randy kretico, if you believe he's person two, telling him per the indictment, why don't you just ch...

Mislead congress on this point, but clearly it was significant to him if not, he wouldn't have, assuming the facts in the indictment are correct if not, he wouldn't have risked potential jail time to try to engage in that type of slight of hand that's a big thing we're watching for future revolutions for mueller's team is how the story kind of plays itself all the way out. >> right now kretico and jerome corsi -- roger stone and jerome corsi are on opposite sides in terms of their stories. paul, you have in the indictment a pretty straightforward narrative. on or about the same day september 1...

Joining me now is paul butler. a law professor at georgetown university, a former federal prosecutor and betsy woodruff, a politics reporter for "the daily beast. both of which are msnbc contributors paul, i want to get your reaction to the indictment and the story it tells both about the active collusion and the search for hillary clinton e-mail material from wikileaks by roger stone and this weird back and forth he has with the intermediary, the person who is identified as person two, that he's not only using to sort of get this information but then later threatening about being honest about...

29 armed fbi agents, 17 squad cars, a squad team, a 6:00 a.m. raid, that's extra, and i think what mueller was doing was sending a message to roger stone. if this is how the criminal justice system treats people who are presumed to be innocent, imagine what happens if you're convicted of a crime your dude paul manafort, he's sitting in solitary confinement right now if you don't want that result, you are looking right now at jail for the rest of your life you better think about making a deal with us >> interesting betsy, you know, the other thing was, you know, roger stone, randy kretico, if y...