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Very poorly conceived plan. plan a was to rapidly grow into ukraine, and take the cities, and then leave. plan be is really not all that dissimilar. its massive forces trying to surround kyiv, believing their supply lines are exposed. yesterday, they took nine losses in aircraft. that's massive, the largest amount of aircraft lost by probably any major power since world war ii. we need to start thinking about the long haul, how this is going to be a slug. plan c looks like russia surrounding kyiv, maybe. i don't, know they don't have enough combat power. this gives -- this gets drawn out longe...

Allies have repeatedly said over the last couple of weeks, pretty much no matter what russia does, we will not engage militarily, nato will not engage militarily, nato will not engage militarily. tony blair says he thinks that's a tactical mistake, there has got to be some stick, and nato perhaps holding or threatening not to hold its fire while potentially negotiating something like this. so i think it does offer a glimmer of hope. it will obviously stick in the ukrainian�*s dilates, but it could provide a way out of that. �* , but it could provide a way out of that. v ., ., ~ but it coul...

They're fighting. they're not going to capitulate and become part of russia. they want no part of it. the question is what is his plan c? there doesn't seem to be a way out and back down. i wonder what you make of the fact that he's going in further because it just seems logical that the more violence you inflict on the ukrainian people, the more they will hate him. can you help us get inside his head? >> i don't think i can. he clearly, we've seen putin for 22 years. he doesn't back down. he's never backed down so he's going further with more violence, with more attacks, with more occupation ...

And i think they feel as though they are not encircled. are they right? >> yeah, brian. it's good to be with you. you are absolutely right. they -- to the south it's still wide open. they have not been able to encircle kyiv at all. you know, i'm sitting here, i think all of us who studied this kind of stuff for years. we are just scratching our head and said it makes no sense. the main attack should have been on kyiv. i understand he went for the outer -- the mariupol and donbas region and down to odesa. >> brian: right. >> the key to the whole fight is neutralizing the government of zelenskyy...

Culminating in their capacity to continue advancing. >> so what happens next, then? are the ukrainians -- obviously they're able to keep them from taking prized targets like the capital, but the russian military power, the might of the russian military is more powerful even if the ukrainians are a lot more determined to defend their country against the invaders. >> they certainly are, and they've done a sterling job so far. the russian initial failures, they moved to plan b, which is a slow grinding war of attrition. that actually hasn't worked well for them either. they will now transition to...