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That's what they got him on. >> laura: taxi shield. >> when flynn pleaded to lying people said i guess they're not going to use them as witnesses because they've just pleaded to lying. this has just happened to michael cohen. mueller is not planning to -- >> laura: they're not nothing but they're process crimes. >> as witnesses in a future prosecution. >> laura: we don't know what mueller has. i keep saying this as an attorney. you don't know what the mueller team has. andrew weissmann is not at the mueller headquarters with the faux pillars out front playing patty cake. i'm not saying it's th...

It all at one time in one major indictment. so, i mean, i think what you're seeing is this is all being lined up for a major indictment. you've got three witnesses. you've got cohen who obviously takes us right into the sweet spot of the russian conspiracy. you've got rick gates, who was there straight through after manafort left in august of 2016. and then you've got michael flynn, who probably provides the motive as to what's going on with respect to -- >> the sanctions? >> a quid pro quo lifting of sanctions for the help. >> right. judge, i also wanted to get your feedback as someone who wa...

Seeing is this is all being lined up for a major indictment. you've got three witnesses. you've got cohen who obviously takes us right into the sweet spot of the russian conspiracy. you've got rick gates, who was there straight through after manafort left in august of 2016. and then you've got michael flynn, who probably provides the motive as to what's going on with respect to -- >> the sanctions? >> a quid pro quo lifting of sanctions for the help. >> right. judge, i also wanted to get your feedback as someone who was a federal judge. to watch rudy giuliani who ran the southern district of n...

Statements to congress. it's basically perjury. that's a substantive crime, not just a mere process crime. and as you were saying, jim, it's a pr campaign here. the trump people want to spin that as oh, there's no real substantive crimes going on here. all these process crimes. but you know, when you look at this investigation, the amount of false statement convictions is just unbelievable. i mean, it permeates the entire situation here. and that says a lot about what's going on and also raises the question of what is it they're all so desperately trying to hide at this point. >> ron, the lyin...

Everybody lying, right? and it's -- you know, rudy giuliani is out with a tweet this morning saying, oh, thesis are process crimes. lindsey graham has said, these are process crimes. this is a talking point to minimize what has thus far been primarily false statements, crimes, that robert mueller has charged. but when you start to look at one, two, three, four, five, there are a lot of false statements being made to federal officials in violation of the law. and people don't lie for no reason. they generally lie in their own interest, which is why, when donald trump says michael cohen is lying...