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Trial, which did happen for him in one of his cases. he got off pretty easily. if you look at people who extensively cooperate and are charged with the same that manafort was charged to or plead guilty, he really did quite well. it is complicated and nuance and i am sorry to say that. remember mueller's team make clear what they wanted and we'll see what they get from judge jackson. >> jeremy bash, i have to introduce some evidence on this conversation on an entirely different topic and an unpleasant one. it is not just because i know you grew up a son of a rabi that i am going to ask you abou...

>> i would say that they probably were, it is possible from their pleadings of what they were seeking and with judge jackson with the district court and washington, d.c., it may be different, i would urge people to look at a washington post story published today. ill urge you to look at that. it says essentially with light cases, very similar cases that manafort actually got hit pretty hard with four years. now, if you look at people who are charged and convicted at trial, which did happen for him in one of his cases. he got off pretty easily. if you look at people who extensively cooperate an...

Pro quo? it can't be implied. you have to basely prove somebody said if you do this, i'll do that. that's a quid pro quo. what do you have to prove here? >> that's right, chris. if you were trying to prove a straight out bribery case which is one possible charge here, you would have to show that trump or someone on his behalf basically made a pretty expressed promise that they would lift sanctions in exchange for what they were getting which was help on the campaign, help throwing the election, maybe something with trump tower. there are other possible charges here. i do think that bribery is ...

Investigation. just to be really clear here and put a point on it, can you compare the resources and the money on a mass shooting investigation with the special counsel and everything else that's going on over here? >> no. they're totally different appropriations even. remember mueller was allowed to keep going during the shutdown. that money is set aside, it's completely different. >> the only apples comparison is completely independent counsel investigations. deadliest mass shooting america, the fact there's no motive is a reminder that evil exists and sometimes you can't put a fingerprint o...

Sort of salacious video, but it's more likely to be more mundane. these intertwined business relationships. russia has been continually press iing the trump administration through these back channels to ease sanctions. that's the core of the conversations with michael flynn. the core of the conversations at the trump tower in june of 2016 and russia is really trying to maneuver their way to regain their access to the world financial markets. >> you and i talked so many times about trump and russia and this veinvestigation. you've been following the investigation is closely. do you think muelle...