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The thing over to whomever, right? >> they could, uh-huh. well, you know, there's a deep relationship between pakistan and china. it's been getting deeper. you know, we're theoretically a big partner with pakistan, but over the last decade actually some 40% of pakistan's arms have come from china. about 30% from the u.s. there's a deep relationship. both countries want to deepen it, somewhat unfortunately. i mean, it could be exported to china, but also broken apart, analyzed, reverse-engineered in pakistan itself, and the chinese of course have great experience doing that. they did it to one ...

As electronics, software and important products like that, that get picked up here in the u.s., brought back to china, reverse-engineered, and flooded into the market at a fraction of the price that the people who actually invented, created, thought up the product are selling their wares for. and it is a real problem, because not only is it sort of a damper on some of that creativity that is our skper tas and -- expertise and is crucial to innovation and technological advances, but it's also -- it's a completely different mindset they have what we have, is that there is sort of ownership of id...

Reverse engineered to score a political point. it begins as it's business, but it's small. it's great. it's not big business. big business is bad but it's business, it's not the state, the public sector. it's small, but it's business. what is a small business? >> it's completely misrepresented many ways. people use the term because it's easy to get behind small business. nobody wants to go out and say i'm against small business. this helps or this hurts small business. in terms of the actual definition, if you look at the sba, it's under 500 people. >> employees? >> under 500 employees. all of...