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To create some sort of backlash? >> i do, particularly because they're coming into context of genuine abuses of government power especially by the irs. i think the big thing to remember is national security is different from internal management of the government. we're dealing with foreign terrorist threats here and secondly, apparently this program really does require court orders to target particular individuals or groups and you can't just migrate through the whole database and data mine and say this looks suspicious. you need to say and this is grouped in waziristan and let's see who they'...

We want the government to know everything about the tsarnaev brothers in advance, but they don't want anyone to look at our phone records and everything that can exist at the same time. we are going to have a debate now. >> it was interesting. the president on friday was at pains to say that he was skeptical of this program when he came into office, but that he scrubbed it and he added safeguards on it, do you think he flipped on surveillance what once he became commander in chief. >> he flips on everything. it is political. for him -- when it is bush's policy, it is a false choice. when it is...

Your reaction. are they to you part of a big package here? >> they are completely part of the whole entire package as you said. government run amuck. when it is so vast that even david axel rod says that the government is too vast then we know it is too big and they have too much power and i will think one of the other things that struck me from the hearings this week is that you have government bureaucrats and people saying oh, i'm sorry and that is it. like they can just apologize as though a regular american citizen can say to the irs i'm sorry we lost our receipts we are good, right. we ca...

It, he's simply continued and you could argue well that he's been hypocritical to do it, he simply is continuing programs he's inherited from george w. bush. >> that's a vigorous agreement. we have to have these programs to connect the dots. we have to follow people. we do not need to target american citizens unless there's some evidence of proximity to foreign terrorists and it is a good program, it's a necessary program, but it cannot be -- let me just quote rush limbaugh, my beloved. it's not like colonel sanders is collecting this information. you cannot separate the politics from the poli...

To create some sort of backlash? >> i do, particularly because they're coming into context of genuine abuses of government power especially by the irs. i think the big thing to remember is national security is different from internal management of the government. we're dealing with foreign terrorist threats here and secondly, apparently this program really does require court orders to target particular individuals or groups and you can't just migrate through the whole database and data mine and say this looks suspicious. you need to say and this is grouped in waziristan and let's see who they'...