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As a aaa-rated piece of debt, but at the same time, they went out and bought insurance on what they thought would be the failure of this instrument. so it was that simultaneous transaction, which is what a lot of people are calling into question, and whether or not, in fact, they were betting against the ultimate buyer of this structured product. >> that's a very good description. >> complicated. >> the best i've heard. but, sunny, you're a former prosecutor, you've worked on security cases like this. now these e-mails have surfaced. that's new, as joe johns pointed out, in which goldman execu...

Of people are calling into question, and whether or not, in fact, they were betting against the ultimate buyer of this structured product. >> that's a very good description. >> complicated. >> the best i've heard. but, sunny, you're a former prosecutor, you've worked on security cases like this. now these e-mails have surfaced. that's new, as joe johns pointed out, in which goldman executives essentially acknowledged betting against the real estate bubble. i mean, is that illegal? is it amoral? how damaging is this? >> well, it certainly looks fraudulent. and i think that's really what the bot...

Schapiro. that meeting didn't go well. what happened? >> at the beginning and then i got into it with her general counsel. he and i went at it and looked like he would come across the coffee table and strangle me. >> neil: what happened? i thought the reason there was agid there is everyone touting to the enforcement division and maybe that caused ruffled feathers. you would think they would welcome your advice. >> and they did. she took my advice about a blis whistle blower program and said we're not getting big cases and the only way to get it is treat the whistm blowers well. she was accomm...

Cohen's new attorney has a lot of experience in security cases and won some big cases the last year. in that area and let me signal cohen's focus on economic type crime. i may have some issues there. i am here to tell the world that all this russia traders stuff and collusion, i am not apart of that. maybe i am on the bad businessman or on the hook of some of that. all the russia stuff is some where else. that's not me and what i am involved in. >> when you talk to a lot of people, they talk about michael cohen being a family man and being a nice guy and the one thing that stood out to me is q...

So it was that simultaneous transaction, which is what a lot of people are calling into question, and whether or not, in fact, they were betting against the ultimate buyer of this structured product. >> that's a very good description. >> complicated. >> the best i've heard. but, sunny, you're a former prosecutor, you've worked on security cases like this. now these e-mails have surfaced. that's new, as joe johns pointed out, in which goldman executives essentially acknowledged betting against the real estate bubble. i mean, is that illegal? is it amoral? how damaging is this? >> well, it certa...