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Faithful muslims can also be reformers. but what ultimately worries me is that when you talk about christianity being a reformed religion, remember that it took, as you rightly pointed out earlier, a long time for it to get there. but if martin luther's predecessors had fallen for the kind of pessimism that you're talking about, they probably wouldn't have even tried and laid the seed bed for martin luther's ideas to then blossom. >> in those days they were probably told the christians that convert to zlarnlgs which by those standards was a progressive religion. >> they were taught to convert ...

Ago. it's still a lifetime achievement award for crime. >> paul: so, who are the heroes in this story, if you will? by that i mean intellectual, but also political. who ended up, who has changed the thinking here that has caused police forces to go back to actual crime fighting and has-- have helped to blow up this social theory of the last 40 years? >> without being too parochial i would claim new york city as the seed-bed of this revolution. in the 1990's, william bratten was police commissioner under rudolph guiliani. >> paul: went on to be police chief in los angeles. >> los angeles, and s...

Ago. it's still a lifetime achievement award for crime. >> paul: so, who are the heroes in this story, if you will? by that i mean intellectual, but also political. who ended up, who has changed the thinking here that has caused police forces to go back to actual crime fighting and has-- have helped to blow up this social theory of the last 40 years? >> without being too parochial i would claim new york city as the seed-bed of this revolution. in the 1990's, william bratten was police commissioner under rudolph guiliani. >> paul: went on to be police chief in los angeles. >> los angeles, and s...

Ago. it's still a lifetime achievement award for crime. >> paul: so, who are the heroes in this story, if you will? by that i mean intellectual, but also political. who ended up, who has changed the thinking here that has caused police forces to go back to actual crime fighting and has-- have helped to blow up this social theory of the last 40 years? >> without being too parochial i would claim new york city as the seed-bed of this revolution. in the 1990's, william bratten was police commissioner under rudolph guiliani. >> paul: went on to be police chief in los angeles. >> los angeles, and s...