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Ideas that may seem totally far out when introduced and then work their way to the center. so what's -- what's to -- why give up before you even start? >> well, look, that's undoubtedly true. but the other fact of american politics is you do have to kind of catch a wave. you have to be part of a moment that americans are feeling. one of the things you have to do to get elected president is to find the moment you're living in and show americans how their lives are going to be better as a result of your policies. and again, because people are so deeply skeptical of government, because they're so...

Undoubtedly true. but the other fact of american politics is you do have to kind of catch a wave. you have to be part of a moment that americans are feeling. one of the things you have to do to get elected president is to find the moment you're living in and show americans how their lives are going to be better as a result of your policies. and again, because people are so deeply skeptical of government, because they're so jaded, in part because of what the republicans have done to government in the last few years, it's a very tough sell to argue that for example, we should have an entirely go...