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Okay, fine. at the end of the day, this is potentially illegal and it sounds like some of these people were warned that it was illegal. >> and ignorance of the law is never a defense, right? and there were briefings given to the trump campaign about counter intelligence threats and what -- who you should and shouldn't meet with. but, look, this is a hugely significant development in this story, i think, kasie, because what we have here essentially is two additional very wealthy and powerful countries that appear to have tried to influence the american election. whether crimes were committed or...

What -- who you should and shouldn't meet with. but, look, this is a hugely significant development in this story, i think, kasie, because what we have here essentially is two additional very wealthy and powerful countries that appear to have tried to influence the american election. whether crimes were committed or not, and mueller is investigating that. and there is a question as to whether the saudis and the marauders were working with the russians because there are long-standing ties between the nati nations and their intelligence services. look at what the saudis and emirates have gotten ...

Now we find out today not from the white house but from the kremlin president trump alsoru invited putin to come to the white house. the question is why is he doing these things sending positive signals to putin when everyone else including our allies are pushing back against russia? when we just expelled russian diplomats, we're trying to send a message that russia has to back up but president trump quietly and secretly is sending the opposite message. >> jason: are you really arguing the two leader shouldn't meet and shouldn't talk? you think that's bad? >> no, i n actually think it's good t...

And i mean, he can meet with who he wants, and certainly, they can meet with him. i'm not saying they shouldn't meet, but let's not mischaracterize what was in and what was not in the room, who was not in the room, and therefore, what was not discussed. >> yeah, yeah. yes, sir! i mean, you're absolutely right. you know, guys, we are sitting here trying to have a thoughtful, intellectual conversation about black history and the president's role in some way in showing leadership and understanding history, and here's the reality -- what we saw is that this president does not have any interest in ...

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