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Shouldn't take, and that is to undertake a swap in this case. to swap a private american businessman for a russian agent would send a terrible signal. it would send a signal that the russians can arrest any american who's there on tourism or legitimate business purposes and secure the release of someone who is doing the bidding of moscow, contrary to our national security interests. what gives me pause about this, steve, is the fact that vladimir putin and donald trump once again have aligned interests in this case. of course vladimir putin wants nothing more than to get back maria butina, to ...

This. i never visited a u.s. citizen in a jail. so that was a big symbolic step. i think at the end of the day president trump claims he has a special relationship with president putin. so he should call up president putin and say what are you doing with our guy and you should release him. now, i don't expect that to happen. but for years we have been told by the president we've had a theory about foreign policy that developing these personal relationships can be good for american outcomes. well, here's a concrete test of the case. i think that's what the president should at least try to do. >...

Let's say, and it wasn't successful, what other avenues are there? >> well, there's one avenue they shouldn't take, and that is to undertake a swap in this case. to swap a private american businessman for a russian agent would send a terrible signal. it would send a signal that the russians can arrest any american who's there on tourism or legitimate business purposes and secure the release of someone who is doing the bidding of moscow, contrary to our national security interests. what gives me pause about this, steve, is the fact that vladimir putin and donald trump once again have aligned in...

Of influencing the investigation. that's what materiality means. it has to matter, and it has to matter to the investigation. and i guess the main point here is that this is not the southern district of new york charging michael cohen with making false statements about trump tower. it's bob mueller who's investigating the campaign. so somehow these two things have to connect. and we're waiting to see how mueller will connect them. >> and joyce, do you see that connection as involving money? >> you know, it's interesting. we see so much of the contours of the investigation, but we don't know ex...

Crack. when you bring my name up to the judge, just tell him facts. the idea that his factual defense that his money is good now, he made it from music is enough. do you think that kind of defense will work for the trump family members here? >> i don't know if the defense really works, but i think meek has a good point, which is that the government always has the burden of proof. you can't just assume that because there's smoke there's fire. you can't assume that because there are deals in russia that there's illegality. so the government will have the same burden in this situation that it wou...