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Looking just to get a sense of it. just because he's interviewing the president doesn't mean he thinks there was obstruction of justice. he could talk to him to confirm his suspicions there was not obstruction of justice. >> look, the special counsel, first and foremost, he and his team are charged with finding facts, and they're charged with finding facts and applying those facts to law and -- >> inculpatory and exculpatory. things that show proof of a crime and show proof of no crime. >> exactly right. finding facts, finding the truth, finding out what happened. and they are charged with fol...

Mueller and his team would want to interview the president because he's a witness. now, to be clear, the president -- this president, like any president, is not just any witness. he's got a big job, so it's also not surprising that his lawyers, as reports indicate today, may be trying to negotiate the terms of any interview, and that makes sense as well. >> and it could be a matter where the special counsel is looking just to get a sense of it. just because he's interviewing the president doesn't mean he thinks there was obstruction of justice. he could talk to him to confirm his suspicions th...

Immigration issue to being a character issue. >> ben in. >> if you're saying that ted cruz has a character issue, i beg of you, show proof of that. when he was running for the senate as the outsider in texas, if you look at what he said on immigration and border security and what he said about how we have to be humane and tough on the border and we can't give up amnesty automatically, that is what he said in his own words. so there is no flip-flop from that. the same thing he said about the gang of eight bill. >> what about matt's point on character? popularity matters. when you are the butt o...

>> the first awareness i had was during the interview last night. >> all right. so late last night, giuliani told nbc news that he made the admission after being told about documents that show proof of the payment. giuliani a former u.s. attorney, accused law enforcement in the office that he once led of playing dirty, quote. i wanted to get out in front of the special counsel and the southern district of new york because at some point they would realize this information and leak it. giuliani said i don't think the president realized he paid cohen back for that specific thing until we made him...