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Why not just deal with the pension issue, deal with the health care issue, close the budget gap? why do you have to take the extra step of ending collective bargaining by the rights of the state workers. and the answer he's saying is because if you go back, if they are able to institute these changes, the unions will come back in a year, six months, and bargain back up to the levels they were before. unless you want to tackle the issue in the long term, you have to deal with the collective bargaining rights. >> he also made some snide references, i think, but certainly very pointed references,...

On the establishment cases which usually involve nativity scenes in the public square, they do it on a case by case context basis and i'm saying this particular context, to me, is pretty owe vert vert. martha: and the state trooper logo is on the cross and that was seen as a see yviolation of separation of church and state. >> the logo makes it more of state involvement. if it was on private property, obviously it would be different and the fact it is on public property and we have the logo it changes the amount of it -- but i still fall on the side of, it is a secular symbol and i don't think...