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He's going in there as a witness, so he's got to speak the truth. really what's happening here is that as giuliani waits longer, maybe this is part of his delay plan, but he's really giving more and more potential perjury traps to mueller because now all these people are coming in to give insight into exactly what the president's intent was. >> yeah, so that truth isn't truth made chuck todd put his head in his hands and even the former fbi director. this is what james comey said. truth exists and truth mathters. truth has always been the touch stone of our country's justice system. people who...

You could hurt them. and i know that these people, that some of the people were hurt yesterday. it was a display that i found to be absolutely unacceptable, and i was just so -- i was on the verge of anger and tears the entire day. i never thought i would see that in this country, ever. >> andy, while i have you here, the other question i wanted to pose is what do you say to backers of health care reform and some of the republican backers of this bill who say they're not against the recipients of these programs. they're certainly, they say, not against patients in america. but they say the ove...

And i asked myself the same question. where are we? what kind of people would ask -- would have them dragged out of wheelchairs because people in wheelchairs are still fragile. you have muscles that have not been used. you have bones that have not borne weight. if you don't know how to really pick someone up to move them from their chair, you can harm them. you could hurt them. and i know that these people, that some of the people were hurt yesterday. it was a display that i found to be absolutely unacceptable, and i was just so -- i was on the verge of anger and tears the entire day. i never ...

They're not against the recipients of these programs. they're certainly, they say, not against patients in america. but they say the overall system cannot hold and that you have to revert things back to the states and have state-level reform. what do you, as someone who's run these programs, what do you say to that argument? >> i'd say a couple things. first of all, we have a commitment in our country that we made in 1965 that wasn't a partial commitment. it wasn't a halfway commitment. it was a commitment to people that when they need medical care and they're in the straits that we're talking...

In jail under the old guidelines. under the sentences now deemed to be unfair and unnecessarily harsh and frankly targeted toward minority populations. so signing that bill, that helped people going forward in terms of not getting those kind of sentences anymore. but it didn't do anything for the thousands of people sentenced under the old guidelines. today, the attorney general, eric holder, announced that the justice department and the white house are working together on new guidelines that will be used to recommend pardons or commutation of sentences. and the new guidelines will affect pote...