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>> that's growth. that's not proficiency. >> the proficiency is if they've reached a like third grade level for reading, et cetera. is that -- >> i'm talking about the debate between proficiency and growth. >> senator franken famously never did get an answer to that question and tomorrow we'll find out if that matters to 50 republican senators. but on saturday night, another classic indicate mckinnon impersonation was born. >> betsy! [cheers and applause ] >> hello. yes, yes, the man? >> yeah. hi. i don't think we ever got a clear answer on this. how do you value growth versus proficiency in m...

Betsy devos struggled with the questions should we measure growth or proficiency. >> if i'm understanding your question correctly, around proficiency, i would also correlate it to competency and mastery. >> that's growth. that's not proficiency. >> the proficiency is if they've reached a like third grade level for reading, et cetera. is that -- >> i'm talking about the debate between proficiency and growth. >> senator franken famously never did get an answer to that question and tomorrow we'll find out if that matters to 50 republican senators. but on saturday night, another classic indicate m...

>> you can't say definitively that guns shouldn't be in schools? >> well, i will refer back to senator enzee and the school that he was talking about in wyoming. i think probably there i would imagine that there's probably a gun in the school to protect from goeshl gri from potential grizzlies. >> trump's nominee for education secretary struggled in her senate hearing this week, like in this back-and-forth with senator al franken over the standard for assessing schools. >> each student is measured according to the advancement that they're making in each subject area. >> that's growth. that's n...

Mastery so that you -- each student is measured according to the advancement that they're making in each subject area. >> well, that's growth. that's not proficiency. so in other words the growth they're making is in growth, the proficiency is -- >> if they've reached -- >> an arbitrary standard. >> if they've reached a level -- proficiency is if they've reached, like, a third grade level for reading, et cetera. is that -- >> i'm talking about the debate between proficiency and growth. >> yes. >> and what your thoughts are on them. >> well, i was just asking to clarify, then -- >> well, this i...

Proficiency i would also correlate it to competency and mastery so that you -- each student is measured according to the advancement that they're making in each subject area. >> well, that's growth. that's not proficiency. so in other words the growth they're making is in growth, the proficiency is -- >> if they've reached -- >> an arbitrary standard. >> if they've reached a level -- proficiency is if they've reached, like, a third grade level for reading, et cetera. is that -- >> i'm talking about the debate between proficiency and growth. >> yes. >> and what your thoughts are on them. >> wel...