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Necessarily where you see things going but as a thought-exercise, if that were the ultimate outcome what then is the message it sends to the world? >> well, look, i mean, what happened to us was the fact that people of belarus couldn't overthrow bloody dictators and belarus has become this military base for russia which they used to attack ukraine. i think what the west is worried about here is the losses mound and people will have enough and will just give up and step aside, you know. putin will take it as a victory that will spur him on to try the same tactic in muldova the baltics, so on so...

It's like sausagemaking. >> it's literally partisan, unfortunately a savory sausagemaking. >> i love it. i think it's evocative and gross. >> as we're seeing today, we talked about the sausagemaking. the virtue of sausagemaking is that at some point you actually make the sausage. >> though there's the finished product. this is like a closed sausage factory. congress is not actually producing the sausage. >> they're in there just mixing around meat and spices. [ laughter ] gross. >> at some point you got to serve up a sausage. otherwise, what are we doing? >> i don't know. i really don't know. ...

I mean, i will just tell you, within our newsroom today, we are speculating just like any other, i assume, newsroom is speculating, just like you are speculating now. you are, i mean, it seems almost obvious to say at this point, butter completely in the dark. we've asked all the questions that we are asking here, and so i guess that's a long-winded way of saying, i have nothing to add on that. but, sure. i guess the thought exercise on the question is, is it gutless or not? the thought exercise is, all right, what if this person puts a name on this. he or she probably would get fired, like, i...

Authoritarian act. on the other hand, you have this sealed off vice president's office that can present to capitol hill, to the country the face of normalcy. is that a normal way that a system like this, an authoritarian system would operate? >> absolutely. one temporarily looks a little worse than the other. what is lost in the shuffle is what unites them. what unites them in this particular case is utter incompetence, right? if we take pence at his word, which actually i would recommend doing at least as a thought exercise, then what we're looking at is a perfectly incompetent transition tea...

It's crazy to me. on 9/11 if president bush had messed up the response to a terrorist attack in libya, on the anniversary of 9/11 and lied about it, for a week and a half, you can not tell me that we would have heard the end of it, ever? >> on both those instances, you know i just want to say as a reporter, in terms of "fast and furious", this is a program started before obama came into office but and i think --. bill: she is talking about general coverage. with regard to libya, that is tough thing to argue against. >> that's basically like conspiracy theory, saying we think you should be more...