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It's surreal. very much so. >> what does that loss feel like? >> yeah. i can't put it into words. it was tremendous. it was awful. i immediately called mark and then -- i'm babbling on the phone. i can't even speak. >> mark gica is charlie's uncle, lynn's brother. >> after the initial shock there's disbelief. i didn't burst into tears right away. i didn't start screaming. i was just stunned. >> lynn grew up in ohio. she was the baby of the family, the only girl. here she is with her two older brothers, john and mark. but lynn was not like them. >> she was a tentative girl, whereas my brother a...

>> she was a tentative girl, where as my brother and i were very outgoing. >> their father died young. lynn often fought with her mother. >> co-dependent, love-hate, call it what you want. >> she got married, moved to california with a brand new husband that didn't workout. ended pretty quickly, but then one day she went to a ball game, dodgers versus somebody, who knows, and she found him. the right guy. her guy. he was almost 14 years older than she was but didn't matter. and fred was a very successful man. anyway, this time it clicked. they had an intimate wedding on a boat off the californ...

>> well, really the president and all of us. we're just locked in this co-dependent, bizarre dialectic with each other where he does something outrageous. we're forced to deal with it because he is the president of the united states. and we're in many ways having to deal with reality -- i hate to say it -- on his terms because he did become of the president of the united states. and the context was, so the administration pushes the family separation policy. he then reverses it. people, in my view, should say, because hopefully that's progress -- we say progress, but then the huge part of the a...

Member of congress from the great state of florida, and jon meacham of the great state of tennessee. his latest and most timely work is "the soul of america: the battle for our better angels." gentlemen, welcome to you both. jon, i was given a quote from you earlier today, and i will read it. you called this the longest abusive relationship in american history. clue in our viewers as to who and what you were talking about. >> well, really the president and all of us. we're just locked in this co-dependent, bizarre dialectic with each other where he does something outrageous. we're forced to de...

Battle for our better angels." gentlemen, welcome to you both. jon, i was given a quote from you earlier today, and i will read it. you called this the longest abusive relationship in american history. clue in our viewers as to who and what you were talking about. >> well, really the president and all of us. we're just locked in this co-dependent, bizarre dialectic with each other where he does something outrageous. we're forced to deal with it because he is the president of the united states. and we're in many ways having to deal with reality -- i hate to say it -- on his terms because he did...