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Have that gap, you have a crisis, this is not suddenly the civil service workers are being paid so much more than they were two years ago, when states were doing fine. let's not confuse the issue, i disagree about union busting, he wants to do it, he may have the votes for it. >> this is about the budget? >> no, i don't buy that. the unions have agreed with him on the give backs, this is prospectively as ed said, who will have how much power in the politics of wisconsin. >> they have used the power in states and nationally, to basically go try to alter the game. your successor patterson is tot...

In the meantime, 14 democratic state senators are basically boycotting the bill. they've left the state to stall a vote on it. joining me now is eliot spitzer and ed rollins. elliott you're a democrat. >> yes. >> do you agree this is about union busting? >> yes. >> i should have asked that question to ed. >> no, i'll answer for him. >> this is about altering the power that unions have had with democratic legislatures. wisconsin has been a state for 50 years, has had these kinds of rights. they have basically gotten great advantages, i think the governor feels he has to bring them back to earth...

Have that gap, you have a crisis, this is not suddenly the civil service workers are being paid so much more than they were two years ago, when states were doing fine. let's not confuse the issue, i disagree about union busting, he wants to do it, he may have the votes for it. that is not why -- >> this is about the budget? >> no, i don't buy that. the unions have agreed with him on the give backs, this is prospectively as ed said, who will have how much power in the politics of wisconsin. >> they have used the power in states and nationally, to basically go try to alter the game. your success...

This is really a misperception of what is the issue driving states into bankruptcy. yes, there are pension issues that are significant. there are issues of wage levels that have to be dealt with. the crisis for states is a revenue crisis, we have had the worst recession/depression since '29, revenues are down 15%. all of the states costs are fixed costs, and so when you have that gap, you have a crisis, this is not suddenly the civil service workers are being paid so much more than they were two years ago, when states were doing fine. let's not confuse the issue, i disagree about union busting...

There. unlike the wisconsin proposal it tries to do away with collective bargaining. the ohio version does keep collective bargaining but it restricts workers rights in other areas. they can negotiate wages, hours and work conditions but not healthcare, sick time or pension benefits and no more automatic pay raises. the changes management practices in use for decades such as eliminating binding arbitration, where a third party decides labor disputes. some say it's union busting plain and simple but supporters say it's needed. >> the arc of justice will bend towards what is right, what is good ...