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Not to ratchet up military means, do we need to start moving down -- ratcheting down this goal of regime change? >> it's not a military goal of ours. as i understand it. the administration says it's not a military goal. it's our political goal. well, the u.n. security council resolution says protect civilians. you know, these things have unintended consequences. what about the civilians now, not gadhafi supporters, military people or governmental people, but civilians who happen to support gadhafi? and there are plenty of those in western libya. what about the rebels' atrocities against those ...

Bad guy, it's the one we have confronted for years in libya. so it was a little bit easier there to make a limited exception to the idea that you don't use military force unless you have a national interest at stake. generally, though, that's a sound idea, because the american people have to support the policy. if you don't have the national interest, you will ultimately lose the support of the american people if the policy -- if the event carries on for too long. >> take a look at a place that many americans increasingly feel we do not have a national interest. that is afghanistan. there is -...

>> do we have a national interest in libya? >> no, no. that's why i said this is an exception to what i think the rule should be. and it's an exception because the use of our military power here is quite limited. the president has made sure that it is circumscribed. and, therefore, i think it's probably an okay use. had i been in there in the councils of governments, i'm not sure i would have supported it, but i understand it. as long as we don't see mission creep, as long as we don't escalate our role, i'm not sure saying that gadhafi must go, regime change, advocating reveem change was the r...

And the east stays under the rebels' control? >> i'm not sure you will. how did we get out of it in korea? we didn't. how did we -- of course, that wasn't indigenous upright. and we still have a divided korea. >> you think we could end up with a divided -- >> we have a stalemate. korea was a stalemate. vietnam was a stalemate. some would argue to you that iraq, the second, i would not make that argument. some would argue that was a stalemate. i don't think it was or is. i think we will ultimately be successful in iraq. but if you end up with a stalemate, then you ask yourself, okay, we've prot...

Now, this is a limbed -- >> do we have a national interest in libya? >> no, no. that's why i said this is an exception to what i think the rule should be. it's an exception because the use of our military power here is quite limited. the president has made sure that it is circum scribed. and, therefore, i think it's probably an okay use. had i been in there in the councils of governments, i'm not sure i would have supported it, but i understand it. as long as we don't see mission krieg, as long as we don'tess clat our role, i'm not sure saying that gadhafi must go, advocating regime change was...