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That shows that the trump administration strategy is undercutting them. usually courts like to stay out of these disputes. she said this gives a reason for courts to get involved. >> would that make it all the more complicated then for the white house to appeal that kind of decision when you talk about, you know, willful obstruction would be representative if the white house were to stop the process? >> i think the -- i think an appeal -- i think they're certainly going to lose on appeal. the question that is how long will that appeal process take? that depends on the panel they drive. the onl...

Investigation. these individuals were all participating. and it gets right down to the question of willful obstruction. and that's that intent issue is why mueller's being so careful here. and frankly, while i don't want to say the evidence is overwhelming, it is substantial and mueller's going to pull the trigger when he thinks it's time. but it is substantial. substantial evidence. >> wow. all right, that word willful. you said willful interference. willful obstruction. we got to remember all that as we continue to learn more or not. avery freeman, richard herman, thank you. always good to s...

Firing or removal? what about all of that? is that, too, part of a potential obstruction issue even though sessions did recuse himself? it's very complicated. >> yes, that's right. >> i know you're following. >> you're absolutely right, an obstruction case is built on building blocks and they have so many examples of it, fred, it's overwhelming right now. there is obstruction. mueller's got that. the reason he's not stopped is because he's also looking at conspiracy between trump and the russians. that's what he's looking at right now. he's looking at money laundering. that's what he's looking...

Self-incrimination. because he incriminates himself. that lester holt in review. he admitted to obstruction in that. meeting with his boys in the oval office and saying that this comey investigation, i had to get rid of him because he was nuts. this is obstruction, fred. >> he said to get rid of the russia thing. okay, if it's overwhelming, avery, obstruction of justice, and there are all these examples that the two of you have just spelled out, then what is robert mueller waiting for? or does it simply mean that's just the tip of the iceberg potentially? >> yes, that's a great question, becau...

Nothing wrong. honestly, it's very bad for our country. it's making our country look foolish. this is a country i don't want looking foolish. it's not going to look foolish as long as i'm here. we've been very open and i want to get that over with. >> avery freeman, civil attorney and law professor in cleveland. good to see you both, happy new year. >> hi, fred, happy new year. >> avery, you just heard the president, he said no collusion, no crime. he's open. what do you make of all he has said? >> there is no crime of collusion, this is a case of obstruction. he's not saying no obstruction, h...