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For mitt romney, but he does seem to be a sane guy. >> there's a standard. in the clown car, one guy's sane. >> he's going -- and that might be enough to get him the 24% or 25% that he needs. but the romney people are being very careful not to predict at anything more than that. >> my daughter says, the night you let the less drunk guy drive. that's what goes on. >> they're not worried about ron -- they figure they can -- the romney people figure they can explain away ron paul, but they have more trouble explaining away a surge -- >> well, here's that surge in rick santorum with the most commi...

>> there's a standard. in the clown car, one guy's sane. >> he's going -- and that might be enough to get him the 24% or 25% that he needs. but the romney people are being very careful not to predict at anything more than that. >> my daughter says, the night you let the less drunk guy drive. that's what goes on. >> they're not worried about ron -- they figure they can -- the romney people figure they can explain away ron paul, but they have more trouble explaining away a surge -- >> well, here's that surge in rick santorum with the most committed voters. 59% say they're with him to the end as ...

John thune -- i'm ahead of myself. let's stop talking about romney winning this thing. is this a rock meeting a hard place or whatever? because an unmovable force meeting an unstoppable object. here's a guy who's had a ceiling because the evangelicals don't like him. he's a moderate, he's lds, all that. whatever the factors are, he seems to be stuck at 23%, romney, nationwide and here in iowa. at the same time, they want a winner. so people are somewhat coalescing about him, somewhat. in the crowd we saw today. you're demurring here? >> i'm demurring a little bit. talking to the romney people ...

Ticket. let's stop talking about romney winning this thing. is this a rock meeting a hard place or whatever? because an unmovable force meeting an unstoppable object. here's a guy who's had a ceiling because the evangelicals don't like him. he's a moderate, he's lds, all that. whatever the factors are, he seems to be stuck at 23%, romney, nationwide and here in iowa. at the same time, they want a winner. so people are somewhat coalescing about him, somewhat. in the crowd we saw today. you're demurring here? >> i'm demurring a little bit. talking to the romney people out there, they're genuinel...

His family members, his family foundation and his business. money all pretty obviously controlled by one guy. he targeted 22 races. he got a republican into office in 18 of those 22 races. one guy. 3/4 of the outside money in the entire election. one guy. one guy who just sat down for a four-hour interview with jane mayer. joining us now is jane mayer, staff writer for "the new yorker" magazine. her new article on north carolina republican kingmaker art pope appears in this week's issue of "the new yorker." jane mayer, thanks very much for being here. >> glad to be with you. >> should art pope...