Used the war on terror to justify and president oppose the covering of his citizens is being developed around pivot 19 to track peoples movements so we want to discuss in ash today is being personally safe and healthy wolf giving up your personal data do you have to do that if your new chief jumping the comments that has that your opinions and your takes your experiences but you have to include them so you too can be in the street. Let me introduce you to the guests you will introduce themselves to you got to run it welcome to the string tell everybody who you are. Thank you for having me on reilly dylan im a physician at Harvard Medical School and formerly served as an advisor to the president of guinea on managing people up its good to have you in the makes hello or who welcome to the strange. Thank you for having me im robin martin im a partner with trial eco i had its Technology Practice and most recently i helped the Indian Government whether its our oga safe to Contact Tracing up. Looking forward to hearing about that and irene welcome to the skin tell of what i am a Senior Researcher for the citizen lab we are a cybersecurity and Human Rights Research lab based at the university of toronto in trying to canada. Great to have you all of the you cast im going to start with and how does your online show called start here they looked d at civilians during this era of a Global Pandemic and wondered how far east see far in terms of invasion of privacy so im going to hand over to saundra if our men and the media and what is out to help us track of it 98 quantify covert 19 theres an app for that crucial recognition g. P. S. Glue to make it easy. Cameras and drones keeping honest to this is a kind of mortar should be very surveillance is really spreading to everything working its all about tracking people to contain the spread some want to know whos policing the police. Doctor on as adults and in terms of technology and whats possible what if you see what is exciting for. Yes from my standpoint looking at it from the Public Health response is missing when we talk about Contact Tracing the role for technology could be very big in that practice just saying that privacy is a 1st and foremost consideration and the technology should not be used unless that can be assured but from a standpoint of trying to Contact Trace when people are moving around again as as countries and as places start reopening if somebody is found to be positive it becomes very difficult to figure out who exactly was around them and who may have been exposed you could be riding on a train with some people youre never going to know their names youre never going to be able to figure out who they were and thats where these apps that can at least detect whose phone has been close to that person can be very useful for finding the contacts and then the 2nd piece of that is finding them quickly right now by interviewing people it takes 2 or 3 days sometimes to track people down but with apps you can conceivably instantaneously notify somebody and thats the lead of identifying a contact is critical and i say to making the case for why we need them im just wondering who you want king on a not right now what the apps that are out there that you seem to make anything flimsy you intend of what is possible. Yes so look the app that were working on is a plain manila Contact Tracing out but there are so many other apps you know youve got joe fencing apps that will actually put you with an electronic box and the moment youre straight out of that box an alarm is going to go off you know youve got facial Recognition Technology as we saw in that video just now that can identify you just based on the photograph so if youre someone whos supposed to be important in they will use facial recognition to identify you. Yes theres a whole theres a whole range of ways of technologies that are that much so i think the point is that whenever you stick knowledge e you are making a trade off and sometimes when the situation is dire the tradeoffs that you have to make are or are more extreme and the most important thing is once that situation asas youve got to scale it back and i think thats the critical thing no i mean what if you seeing what a you seeing out there that you can actually describe how it actually works and a persons idea is if were being asked to put an apple in half turn and this is going to help us realize if weve been in contact with somebody has got to think 900 if we have to be 19 and then were in contact with someone can you explain in a very accessible way how who might work. Yes so i think there are a lot of concerns with Contact Tracing apps so 1st of all its not clear whether using kind of tracing apps would be a lot more effective than manual Contact Tracing so manual Contact Tracing involves interviewing people and so the Contact Tracers are both of you know our detectives but theyre also therapist and theyre also social workers straight so theyre able to get details as to where the person has been particularly during the time when they were contagious with conduct tracing apps or our own host of issues to related to privacy specifically concerns regarding surveillance and its not clear if the methods behind conduct tracing apps would be a lot more productive than the manual contact racer that i mentioned previously and some of this concerns include for instance. You know the vulnerabilities for guarding the potential of hacking of technologies like bluetooth or where a contact logs are being stored. Are very. Invasive in terms of the requirements to install the app or use the app so for instance ive seen apps where it requires access to your camera to take photos and videos it requires access to your memory card so its not clear that these functionalities are required to cheer on the out and therefore their risk infringing on users privacy. Let me share something of you which was a very easy sort of a graphic so that you can see how one system may blanche this is it previously 1st Contact Tracing so youll phone it gives out random messages every few minutes and then when you see somebody else thanks to somebody else you phones as long as you play from the same app will exchange those messages both of the phones remember what was said in heard in the past 14 days which is. Believed to be the time in which you can actually get covert 900 symptoms and then if alan carried to here gets covered 19 she sent a message to a hospital has phone and let everybody else know who was in contact with her and also was on the app and then you then can either south quarantine go to your doctor etc etc thats a very basic walkthrough of how apps or how an app may well work i want to bring in dr mike why im here i know you all know him from the done h. O. Briefings and he he had a briefing last week and dr mike ryder explained why man your testing is not enough the manual interviews are not enough we need to use technology curious but of doing quarantine for contacts we have seen time and time again in countries that have contained this wireless and brought under control without the need for massive lockdowns have done it through the application of the principles of human rights traditional books. Sometimes quite aggressive Public Health surveillance. Does you any that does seem to be some tension between doctors thinking if this is going to help me and people who are very concerned about privacy in technology do you think this is a time to even be worrying about this. I think definitely we need to take privacy to consideration and you know i fact agree with everything there are going to set i think 1st and foremost privacy has to be a short im not a technologist so i dont know all of the complexities that go into that certainly that needs to be a short 1st and foremost secondly i would say we also need to we need to build this on top of a system of manual Contact Tracing so im not saying its an either or equation i think a lot of the discussion around this as unfortunately been either or i think we need to have strong manual Contact Tracing systems in place now the advantage that the apps can provide on top of that especially if its done in a way that secure like were saying it needs to be that way then it can make it actually accelerate no permit which are manual traces can do and that the 2 parameters that it really allows you that i think dr ryan is referring to is one is comprehensiveness of identifying fully all the people who are real contacts like i said especially when things start reopening for what now in many countries where things are locked down the people around you in your house or your are your contacts people are not really moving around theyre not going to work theyre not going to Public Places when that changes its going to become very difficult to identify who always around somebody could have been exposed number one and then number 2 the other thing that and dr ryan might be referring to is speed so the challenge with covert in particular is that people become infectious 2 days on average before they have any symptoms and are most infectious actually the 1st day they have symptoms according to the most recent data that we have and so the challenge becomes if i become infected and i get symptoms and i get diagnosed at a hospital if its taking longer than a day or 2 days to identify my contacts daves probably already transmitted on to others and so does the speed becomes critical because if you identify the context too late transmission will have already happened. I want to put some questions jean from each of sharing your sense that after cuz it 19 these stop i know youre working with in 0 now if you can a plain vanilla tracking app does this have a nice time that goes beyond kind of a team is it a long term apple or is it just for show a term. So the app very clearly says that this is an app for over 1000. 00 and in the app theres no clear sunset clause but the government has just released a the other sharing protocol which has a 6 month. Sunset clause and it essentially says that in 6 months will review it but unless the review says something differently were going to shut this down in 6 months so i think its really important to actually have that sort of a sunset on the use of these apps if it at the very least gives people some assurance that its not going to be used for long term surveillance im looking here at the apple apple has its own twitter feed and just looking here at the at right now it kind of hinted in your piano see it with mitch and youre obviously very concerned about privacy for us ditching our plan sign up every user is assigned to the needs of randomized anonymous device id all communications between 2 devices some device and service done using device no pass information g. s to any communication so you already for a sensing that people are going to be quite concerned about this who support me know absolutely well well you know in normal circumstances you wouldnt want an app that speaking of your every movement and figure out who you met grant them strangers youve met where you what went for a walk and so if that the app is doing that because were in a pandemic weve got to be very sure that whatever data we have to take on the circumstances we take it in a privacy 1st way so you know weve got this device id so its a random number and theres no personal information thats thats exchanged and by default all the information that its collected remains on the form its only pulled up if you turn positive and weve got a rigorous data deletion protocol so every 30 days the data thats on your phone thats wiped out you know dr dillon said that you dont. It be on 40 days and weve just got another 40 made before but every 30 days that that they dont know for gets to meet it. Let me bring in our thoughts can hes the executive director of the Surveillance Technology oversight project he has some very deep concerns at despite what he said rahul about these apps being on peoples past no devices and services. Im deeply worried that governments are rushing to deploy unproven and invasive forms of Surveillance Technology and our rush to come back over 1000 but a lot of these systems will actually work theyll divert energy for a manual Contact Tracing the only approach that does have purifier evidence thats affective in combating the virus but worse than that will be laying a new framework for surveillance that will impact us for generations to come a system that can potentially be used by Law Enforcement by Immigration Enforcement and by every other facet of government then you know seems the loss of concerns about privacy and 9 for instance Elizabeth Rainey says who owns the data that this is a new chief right now thanks elizabeth this who owns the data these apps collect how easy easy is it for governments hold on to that data beyond the coffee quarantines i mean do you have any stories that are actually sort of stories that a warning us about the dangers of apps and how that 1000. 00 tracking. Yes so theres a story coming out of. In which the government has proposed a Contact Tracing app that will retain the data i think up to 10 years so it could potentially be you know well after the kind of makes us over and if i lay on i would like to follow up on the concerns regarding our yes it to were just the Contact Tracing app that is being used in india so to my understanding the its not just for Contact Tracing but its at all in one app so users are given color coded barrett showing infection risk it gives access to tell a medicine pharmacy and diagnosed diagnostic services so the concern is that the more services or functionality there are that are offered in the app it could mean that more data is being collected and also i think we should be concerned when these apps are being deployed in jurisdictions where there are no data privacy laws so in india for instance at the moment there is no National Privacy law and also to mitigate trust issues and you know i there was a survey recently that was conducted a mom i think 4500 americans that found a 50 percent were not install apps that little trust so obviously issues of trust is very important too to address and this is where a sunset clauses or an expiry date of when the app will be use is very important as you and ron has pointed out and also to make sure that the out is open source and this means that the code and the methods behind the apps and the independently verify. Rules you want to pick up on some of that criticism of the way the. Technology to help cover 1000 tracking. Shah so look i never hinted that the app was only contact racing i said it best be militant expressing it does 3 things actually the 1st is it provides communication and it provides access to what we call the means features look if this is a desperate time weve been in a lockdown for almost 2 months there are you know people have Mental Health issues in to get in touch with doctors there is a feature to get access to telemedicine but that telemedicine is completely outside the app its a link that takes you to a different place the app does contact racing it does provide you with the green yellow or orange badge which essentially is the future of our contact racing and it does a 3rd thing which we havent mentioned which i think is extremely important and that is what we call some drama mapping it picks up people symptoms and then it picks up completely anonymous signals of people signal of peoples illnesses and if it can identify heat map of disease clusters that are developing it has the ability to actually identify clusters are disease even before it actually happens and the data is showing that are obviously there has identified 130 spots clusters between 3 and in days earlier than the medical officers on the ground found it and of course you can imagine that that can be tremendously useful getting you know medical resources down to the ground before it actually spreads too much in the community so yeah i mean if it does least 3 things but its in the context in which. Its been designed them and its the data showing that it is successful right now i have i have said that there are privacy provisions built in and i think those privacy provisions address the safeguards even though as as irene says we dont have a privacy law i mean we dont have a procedure law we have to build the app how do we do it in the most privacy preserving way i mentioned the 3 things that weve done which are built into the design of the aft which i think will will address those concerns even though we dont have a privacy. Ok oh my goodness there are so many concerns online right now 1st of all let me start off with with this doctor i know i want to put this to you which you are opposed done in the u. S. In canada in the u. K. How many people would actually download a current of virus Contract Tracing app and not that many people were happy about doing it what would you say to them dr rani. Well i think the issue is that up front we need to figure out some of these questions that irene and role are pointing to how can we do this in a privacy preserving way and i think that concern has to be figured out and i dont think thats in this in the u. S. Context been clearly figured out and once its figured out it also has to be then publicized and promoted to the public in a way that they can understand as irene reporting out the code behind all of this so that we can really know what goes into it so people can. Garner that trust in the app so i think you know none of these things happen from day one and you know go to scale i think we need to figure out some of those questions 1st and foremost like i said to him we cant do that then was to be pushing at we should do it when we can actually do it in a way thats safe and that preserves privacy and then secondly people can trust so you know i see those numbers and i think if we figure out solutions to some of these questions in a way that we can then promoted to the public and people see it and try it and and understand the value of it i think you can see those numbers grow but i think were still at an early point in this i think you know right now the focus really should be getting the manual tracing systems upon which this type of App Technology could really work well in place 1st secondly i think as we Start Building out these apps to me its not something that should go to scale right away i think we need to actually try it out work out the kinks understand what the balls are especially around some these questions and concerns that people have i think we do it in a staged manner that doesnt have to be over years that can be in weeks to months i think we can do this in a way where it actually works and you also do it in a way that builds up the trust that people will need for it to actually go to scale in a way thats affected you not just as reading put in let me see something thats just happened in qatar the time and now well have a man to treat tracking app and this is who he is from the system for a minister the Spokes Person this is the app i think that its quite similar in china as well where you actually use code that is going to tap for a couple of things. This is one of my child leaks peter. And he sed shown here at what it looks like so hes already got his coat a potty you need this code in order to go outdoors and then the pen missions this is just in shine that the missions that you need to give location your phone your storage your disable your screen goes on and on and on irene are you worried that apps like this that say you need this to say how can we need to do this to fly code 19 and you can serve and this is already happening that people asked so many questions but its already happening around the world. Yes absolutely i mean watching does seeing a permissions are required is already given the anxiety level on if i have to personally download it i mean i think there are a number of organizations out there that have given recommendations on the best practices of conduct tracing apps and number one on those lists are typically that be voluntary that people should not be forced to download the app right and buy more think about it so again it would undermine trust because naturally people would be suspicious like why or why do i have it all or who has arguments to this might it have this or i mean you you make a good point only just because jack who she sees on you tube right now what you and he says what if we refuse to download the app what then. Exactly and that is definitely a concern especially in jurisdictions where you know theyre going to have their oppressive governments if we think of the situation in the philippines where president the territory has issued a shoot to kill order for people who violate lockdown measures and if you have magical contact transit you know Location Tracking all implemented alongside the ship to kill or there may be you know facial recognition i mean the amounts of Human Rights Violations that could happen as a result. Unimaginable and certainly once a war situation where we have a human rights crisis that or says to me on the health crisis. I want to just do and before we end here is to bring in an attraction of doctors who see how Helpful Technology can be and they definitely Pro Technology helping because 1000 tracking at least internet. Digital tools and technology could be really useful in the response to prove it 19 were looking at using automatic s. M. S. Questionnaires in parts of west and Central Africa where people use s. M. S. Quite frequently in responding to these questionnaires and explain what symptoms they have were hoping to identify people with signs of over 1000 much at a much earlier stage we see in for example in the early temperature tracking devices use in front of hospitals and some Public Stores with people who wore exhibiting some symptoms probably from cornell for a slight fever or. Introduced popular places is the dad is a valuable to all of us think about how it will empower those lower income Workers Health care workers that perhaps need to ride Public Transportation to get to work. So much still to debate and discuss irene thank you for being in our discussion thank you for being on the streamer who and dr runyan as well thank you my laptop with the Company Tracking tracker from and i t. Theyre asking for your help to help track other truck is around. On my laptop and similar to. 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