Well the beirut explosion lead to political change in lebanon people left to clean up the streets vent their anger what they say is a corrupt system in a dysfunctional state and the country rebuild and rise up from this destruction this is inside story. Hello and welcome to the program on iran current lebanon deserves better its one of the main messages coming out of beirut after tuesdays devastating explosion the blast killed at least 138 people made 300000 residents homeless and destroyed much of the city center many lebanese are blaming government corruption for allowing the disaster to happen 6 years port officials reportedly asked judges for an order to move the nearly 3000. 00 tons of Ammonium Nitrate that was stored in a warehouse but they say they never got a response some Customs Officials are now under house arrest the president says those responsible will be punished but people in beirut say they dont trust their leaders to conduct a transparent investigation or even help clean up the damage. Theyve been 24 years old enough to lift 11 on my entire life ive never seen the country destroyed to this extent were not organized but we come together as one to clean up the country from corruption and from feeds. We hear the revolutionaries taking the place of the state which is supposed to be taking care. Cleaning and securing food and water for the people affected. In my opinion the corrupt state is a dump so today this is our dump sometimes you have to take measures in. Lebanon was already in a deep economic and political crisis before the disaster from beirut so in a call that explains the challenges ahead weve seen a lot of shop owners sitting outside their shops saying even if its the story still trying to make some money to make ends meet people need you know daily wages in order to to to survive half the population live below the poverty line search and rescue operations continue the Health Minister late yesterday said 80 people remain missing many of them were poor to employ us and we saw their families we saw their families waiting for news about their loved ones outside the Port International aid has started to arrive including from france protesters asked president Emanuel Mccraw to help bring political change after he met the lebanese president mccraw demanded urgent reforms of void for the suffering. Today the priority is an aid to support the people without conditions but france has been warning for many months and years that the conditions here demand Reform Energy Public Markets to fight against corruption and if reforms are not made lebanon will continue to suffer. Lets bring in our panel all of whom are joining us from beirut is chief economist for the middle east and north africa at the london based Investment Bank jeffries ronna hoary is a political activists and Karim Makdisi is a founding director of the Public Policy and International Affairs program at the American University of beirut a welcome to you all i want to start with you karim some of the things ive been hearing from lebanese friends here in doha and through my interaction with lebanese people across the world and in lebanon itself. Off is that theyre all corrupt theyre all thieves this is a criminal at that theres no hope anything for lebanon crema how do you get to a position where seemingly most of your population is so anti any Public Institution because theyve been filed so many times how does that happen well and it happens over a very long time its been happening over at least 3 decades since the end of the civil war from there any amount in one piece on with something day and its been a slow demise its a bit like the problem boiling and you know just continues to boil slowly slowly slowly until its too late and its cooked and i think this is i mean this is the short answer its becoming for 3 decades. I dont share and a lot of people will start thing what with blaming everybody blame the people they elected this same group of people over and over and over and on one level thats certainly true on the other level there is a structure in power that structure as has been in place has been internationally sanctioned its been regionally approved at least up until the last few years when this kind of international and regional consensus started to fall apart and then theres been increased lack of consensus inside the country itself so thats not the fem blaming anybody outside but that the structure itself is very much is very its very kind of powerful structure that we need to take some time to try to understand its genesis and whether comes from cream just for the people who dont know levanon is a confessional state a has a very factional nature when it comes to daily politics can just explain to us the structural nature of them not just for those people who dont know yeah sure its kind of i mean its a system that was in fact created through the colonial powers as a way to kind of create to bring together the elite sectarian leaders in a kind of consensus kind of government and have representation through the. Parliament and the government over time through the civil war that kind of representation and the print and the kind of proportional representation of christians and muslims and shouts and then all this has changed over time but its become increasingly tied to a much larger and neo liberal Economic System that is itself that created kinds of corruption and then this kind of elites structure elite sets of politicians and find that survives and bankers and those that are controlling the economics the the kind of Economic System within lebanon just find it on finding ways to to get International Support and to stay in power through elections that are free to an extent that you know they are free to an extent but they are rigged in the kind of largest sense of theres not much to it they just kind of keep recreating themselves and pushing down and the proper alternative progressive voices even now even over the past several months and over the past year when mass protests have have come about in and sort of in unity against the corruption and this and that and ive even this has been blocked and deflected and in a way that was quite. Quite powerfully done and so now protesters citizens people are really angry again are having to reach for me formulate after weve been through this before whats been going on now and the coming days in the coming weeks there has to be reformulation of the kind of goals the intense of what this public protest what people can and channeled this kind of anger into something productive to try to change the Current System to try to change whats been going on over the past 3 decades and not just these last few months well lets talk to one of those political activists somebody who has been out on the streets run a hoary joins us from beirut as well rhonda is it time to tear the whole thing down start again i think it was time to chat the whole thing down a long time ago and today more than ever i think that revolution over 17 has sent. A very Strong Political message even though everyone was thinking it was just you know an impulsive anger of the people and i think the message was no one should trust this ruling mafia not the International Community of course not to people and i think its time to change the system its no longer beneficial just to ask for the resignation of the government the president of the republic needs to go this clown of a government needs to go everyone who was in power since the civil war till today and is seen in the last criminal glassed in august for weve seen images that reminded us of the civil war which is which is on the sleeve of course if this is going to happen because its the exact same ruling class who was governing us during the civil war after and now so yes and the system needs to change as soon as possible because and allow me here to send all the love and all the sorrow to the people in lebanon because i think we all deserve much more than this ruling mafia thats been there just to kill us just to rob us just to oppress us and weve seen now on the street only people helping other people people credit cleaning up the glass people helping the wounded we havent seen one army person one police one minister one member of parliament its only the people that their only job is to kill us and oppress us and rob us and yes for this near reason and i think the last criminal act they did 2 days ago is like the cherry on top the ronna how do you change the system is all well and good saying its a rolling mafia theyre all corrupt they knew they only to go but if youre going to change the system you need a plan to have one is there a plan from activists i dont think this is always weve always asked the same question as if its Rocket Science to have competent people in lebanon that are transparent and that are not there to to kill or rob their people to take power and i dont think this is Rocket Science the moment you have as a good electoral system and good elections and you allow people without having you know. Guns on the table and millions of dollars being spent and banks throbbing peoples money and entire oppression oppressive system and people yes of course you can have a change and yes of course there is ill turn it if its not anger for the sake of anger its not its not at any possibility to have been theyve been on competent people to. To to govern and to serve their people and for me this is not Rocket Science that what we are saying is that everywhere in the world today if you have an oppressive government theres no possibility of change because its there its all because the alternative they give us in lebanon and the arab world its either the dictators or the army or the islamist because what were not a people who can get the best out of us to be able to serve us it is possible its not Rocket Science this question is always there to you know put a trap for people and telling them this is the best you can get you cant get any more or let them all just leave let them resign lets have free elections and then well see let it be a true democracy and let it be justice let people who made this criminal act of august or go to jail let there be accountability lets have a transparent investigation lets have International Investigators that come here and tell us what was in the ports what did explode in the port between houses houses of people between its between the elderly what was stuck in there well you let me come to you next hour youre the chief economist for the middle east and north africa an Investment Bank investment requires confidence because confidence from investors that the money is going to be invested wisely i keep hearing that money just gets stolen in lebanon that is a bad bet now present mccrone was on the streets of beirut he was injured mazie he was speaking to people he seems to be doing more than most lebanese politicians in fact have done and he said the International Aid was not forthcoming unless there were real political reforms is he right to do that or is this a lebanese problem what you know either. The 1st thing we learned and anomic said and i was at u. B. We are very human is not is that economics and politics are 2 sides of the same coin and therefore there is no way you can have economic progress and cannot make Development Without a proper governance environment of law and. Strong institutions that as run have said hold people accountable but also provide the right environment for businesses by the who can businesses and investors or International Businesses or investment or for that matter the International Community and waste willing very much to put its own taxpayers money to had never been on yet it doesnt find the right partners in face so the so is so the issue of this is to sions and governance is at the core of the 7 on the economic problems and therefore didnt have any before and changed have at the start and you know and front loaded matter when added within and i math program or outside i am not that it has to be the foundation of any Economic Program has to be governance reform and institutions ready for now the other problems also that talk to what am i my colleagues were talking about on the economy is that. Lebanons problem i mean its large twin deficits its its double digit current account that fiscal deficit that lead to an occupation of that of 170 percent of g. D. P. Up to 2829000 is a result of this political weakness and Political Institutions and that and through the mall the world bank in 2015 has assessed that the state captured the cost of state capture in lebannon is more than 15 percent of g. D. P. On an annual basis and in this it is this exact model that. That funded it says in an unsustainable matter that treaty unfolded over the last year or so. In what we are seeing now is a both a that crisis is a balance of payment crisis with the sudden stop of capital and the banking crisis that it be venting lebanese both in that banal and but also what we call the extended economy 11 times that that is what i would just buy to its progress in the future i needed to. Meet eyes or to tap its own money because the system that was feeding. This but it because the system was simply unsustainable on tracks bad and. Too costly for its own people everything you are saying you know economics and politics in the same side of different sides of the same coin is very much something that you might have done pretty old is the full post office the 4th and this explosion living on has a bigger problem political change may will take a generation or very long time but right now there are people homeless 300000 you need 5000000000 dollars suggest some estimates to rebuild parts of beirut to get up to standard. So you do you do need a large influx of money but president bush and others in the west a single until this political reform you know going to get money you might mean a situation where 300000 people may well be hung for a very long time is that a worry of course its a larry and i think that hes and im also havent used will i give a broad but i happen to be in beirut now. How are facing basically 2 scenarios the 1st and i you know is the one but if you could change that would and i was some form of it well its a concept that would allow either you know action or to transition a government that would allow basically for an independent competent government to discuss with the International Community and International Media if but also i want to the media to have to dump their Economic Aid Program within the context of an i am after the last as a large losses in the system and that would be probably what we would call in emerging markets probably an orderly exit of the financial crisis the other side i go is the one way. That ebenezer cannot agree among themselves to find a profit what it took us that meant and then we go into what we call a selfdestruction or have any. Scenario whereby have an on going to have to give on a needed international and basically you money getting an aid that may not be enough basically not only to reconstruct the damage that this huge explosion has caused but also more important not to be able to deal with that as you with the economic. Meltdown that that that has been happening before have that then or you would end up with continued high current inflation and you know youre not the purchasing power of that havent used a massive migration that you know is that ive been on that Human Capital and i dont know that sign actually got beaten and that. And it said would you then know how to reverse because its like really a sense of wayside in the sense that recovering the Growth Potential that my mom needs in the future will never be able to come so that i mean that i have really this to say not just a face and its up to them to be able to come together and im forced what we see as the best Case Scenario which is a consensus on the economic that got to go before based on which they couldnt gauge with the International Community let me bring on a hoary in hey youve heard. All that had to say unless they all come together and they do something lebanon effectively becomes a refugee camp beirut suddenly becomes a large refugee camp its a nightmare scenario. Do you think they can come together. I dont i think they are you mean the ruling by the ruling class they are yes i think they are together yes that lebanon today is governed by a major party we dont need to hide behind our finger which is hezbollah but with the blessing of all Political Parties whether they are claiming it or refuting get now there is a need and an important political need to make a difference between the lebanese people and the people in power and for president and all the other. Who want to send humanitarian aid because its central to day after the blast 11 are there are very different channels and its easy to map the Lebanese Red Cross the lebanese hospitals people who are distributing food and aid to so for me its not either if you accept this government and we help you or were not going to help you there are a turn at the channels for humanitarian aid now for political change it is our our job as lebanese people yes however this government needs to be isolated we cant give any more credibility not only the government even the present of their public even the members of parliament. Honestly if that message since october 17th didnt cross to the International Community then dealing with this ruling mafia is a waste of money and effort and time that i dont know what else can send the message now is there any need for humanitarian aid yes and i told you if you go on the streets today of beta youll see its only people helping each other now to go back on the economic crisis and im sure i dont know as much more than me however the fact besides the whole crisis the fact that our at local currency has devaluated we have today a large number of Unemployed People devaluation of the euro means our salaries today are peanuts we really have a humanitarian issue here in lebanon that was brought to us by this ruling class they tried to negotiate with and i do want to we are running out of qana do you want to bring in Karim Makdisi as well and youve made a very good point which i want to bring up to Karim Makdisi lebanon is a sovereign state has a government that the International Community does need to deal with but ron has just said theres no confidence within levanon in that government but the International Community does have to deal with that and 5000000000. 00 is a lot of money for reconstruction likely to come from abroad how do you bridge that gap between what the lebanese people feel about the government and what the International Community has to deal with i mean i mean thats got some very important question im not sure that theres a theres a clear answer to that but i think there is certainly very little if no confidence in all in this government and frankly in previous governments as well but i think theres an issue that is you know beyond the humanitarian disaster and beyond you know needing to have a meeting solidarity and compassion with people that are still missing people that are people that have been injured now these 300000 Homeless People you mentioned the larger sense of the past couple of years just the Sheer Property that has proliferated throughout the country leaving this is science for a moment its you know why well what we can say that there is. No confidence in the government its not its not true necessarily that the condition the Political Parties have lost all their support they havent whether its hezbollah or that one party or the Lebanese Forces or any of the other traditional parties they have their constituents remain fairly loyal i think this is been shown so how do you how do we move away from a system where the traditional parties retain their kind of legitimacy among their own constituency but in the larger frame have no nobody has that the rest of the people dont have confidence in the government but the structural keep on producing the same sense of governance the same sets of people i dont think i think that actually community i think its important to make this point that the International Community. Has a problem for sure how do you deal how do you channel aid to a government and to a system in general that has basically eaten up this money so corruption and through the things that have been very well documented but at the same time the International Community you know also bears a responsibility to an extent that they have legitimized the previous governments that legitimized over 30 s and they provided a lot of money and they were championing the head of the central bank who now is one of the lead up in the figures in the country and many considered to be you know even criminal he was popularized to use and made into a modern central bank or. All sorts of other previous ministers and prime ministers and president s all of them have been you know wealth them throughout the world and International Community and have been given a the money its about these yes so there is a there is a sense where this this kind of government this kind of system cannot exist without International Regional support and that has been the case over 30 years this consensus has now broken and the question and the internationals are not responding in fact to people power the fact that people are out on the street is making the International Community including france and others have kind of recalculate what makes sense for them what is in their interest france is not a humanitarian country france has an interest and of course its but you know very well. To provide humanitarian support everybody will appreciate that but it as a country has an interest inside lebanon and the issue is as you say how do you bridge these these 2 issues together but its up to the lebanese people the lebanese have to a certain point kind of waiting for governmental be formed will not happen its this is a different way of saying they need people to go out and make sure that the system that the government that is put in place to replace this government which at some point simply has to is unfortunately iran we we all running out of time id say we have just just a minute left to run a hoary i want to come to you you were shaking your head there is some of the things that karim was saying particular about politicians not coming out to the streets what do you think do you have any higher. At 1st i dont think that people old practitioners who have loyalties from the people can escape jail this doesnt you know it just doesnt counter balance when you destroy half of beirut because of your incompetence and maybe more than that and one more than 100 people were killed by this blast i think justice is needed before anything else i do have hope because ive seen people on the street not only on october 17th but more importantly yesterday and today and how they are helping each other without the need of anyone else being part of this we need as we need to believe that or at least i believe that we are going to bring this political change but there is a need to isolate completely the ruling parties to isolate completely the mafia that is in power and trust us we can do the rest we have proven to do the rest we have paid with our homes and our lives and our jobs and everything to be able to do the rest we have to stop. Protecting the system the way it is because honestly it didnt work for the past 40 years and it will not work i have a lot of faith in everyone around me everyone i see on the street and they are on the city that the leaders that i aspire come someday i would be i would be governed by i want to thank all our guests are you move ahead ron ahora and Karim Makdisi and thank you too for watching you can see the program again any time by this thing a web site aljazeera dot com and for further discussion go to our Facebook Page thats facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story and you can also join the conversation on twitter we are a. J. The inside story from a to monkey around and the entire team here and a whole life and a. The iraqis grow a lot of the us to wait but we still rest in 2017 people in power are investigating why Trinidad And Tobago became a ripe recruiting ground for i saw. Her for a few years old theres no hope almost in 2020 we returned to uncover the fate of those who left their home loans to join conflicts in iraq and syria. Caribbean to calif it just. Jumped into the stream and julian on Global Community this generation will have to create its own democracy with social media on and on line be part of the debate let me put some comments to you when no topic is off the table is taking on all the systemic islands that people of color have suffered not only now but for decades we all banks need to transform lives the way he gets human equating it business if were going to adapt to climate right out of this stream on out is there every generation has a higher purpose. Ours. Im rob matheson in doha the top stories on aljazeera 16 port officials have been detained as the investigation into lebanons deadly explosion continues protests are being held in central beirut calling for a complete overhaul of the political elite a move which is being backed by french president in manual mode called Bernard Smith as more. On the streets of beirut on thursday frances president emanuel the moment by people many of them calling for a turn of the french mandate france was the colonial power here before independence and is because has essentially stepped into a void left by lebanons own political
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