Transcripts For ALJAZ Inside Story 20240711

Wednesday to further prepare for a transition into office. The meanwhile, the Trump Administration is filing lawsuits to contest results and battleground states and is refusing to provide access to bidens team. While President Trump made his 1st public appearance at a veterans day event as well in arlington, virginia since the election. He hasnt spoken out publicly since he lost his bid, but has been tweeting about unproven voter fraud claims 2 people have been injured in an explosion in saudi arabia. It happened at an event in jeddah, attended by western diplomats and other foreign citizens. The blast targeted a cemetery, jeering a wild for one Remembrance Day ceremony that has more from paris for, all the u. K. The u. S. , greece and italy, their embassies have put out a statement condemning what they call a cowardly attack. Now they are some of the countries that were represented during this Remembrance Day ceremony that took place in jeddah at this cemetery for non muslims. It is almost this day, it is the day that marks the end of world war one. What happened was an explosive device went off during that ceremony. We understand that several people were wounded. We dont have any more details, though, about how gravely they were wounded or their identities protesters and armenians capital voicing their anger about a deal to end fighting with azerbaijan. And theyre going to care about theyre opposed to the agreement, which sees land handed over to a very forces operation in northern ethiopia as threatening to spill over the countrys borders. If european Prime Minister ordered that offensive in the region last week, all those are the headlines, i will have a news hour here for you. On aljazeera, off the inside story, stay with us. Celebrations and azerbaijan, anger in armenia, both sides have agreed to a russian deal in the fighting in the disputed nagornokarabakh region. But can the deal bring peace after decades of animosity and mistrust . This is inside story. Hello and welcome to the program. Im home with him to him. One of the worlds longest running conflicts appears to be over, at least for now. Armenia and azerbaijan have agreed to a russian mediated ceasefire in the going to care about. The disputed region is recognized as part of his or by john, but its controlled by armenians, while the, as areas called the deal a victory. Armenians have called it a national humiliation. Protesters want the armenian Prime Minister to resign for giving up territory to her by john. But nicole pasha, neon said he had no choice after 1200 armenian soldiers were killed in just 6 weeks of fighting. He has not appeared in public since signing the agreement. Well get reaction from both sides, but 1st could add to have made reports from the armenian capital of one. Well, the main slogan coming out of here is that nicole question, who is the Prime Minister of armenia is a traitor. And there you have a couple, couple of 1000 people here in freedom square. You know, these are people who are infuriated with this ceasefire agreement by and large, it has been quite peaceful. There have been some scuffles here. And there we are told at least 20 people have had been detained at the beginning of this rally. And also one of our main is Largest Opposition Party saying that their leader is at the moment being questioned at the national security. Now you have police on this side that the moment theyre standing there watching. They have been reminding people through a microphone that this still a martial law in this country and youre not allowed to protest, but these people are growing it now as poken to a few of them. They say that legal question and didnt have the right to sign that agreement without consulting deeply with the people because they said that that is not democracy. And that basically he sold out and gave away their land as well, including those 7 regions that are considered being occupied by armenia. Since 1900 people here say that is not the case. They say that they are the people that live there, instapundit cares in other parts of nagornokarabakh, wont be returning there because of what he called the accepted. Well, theres much more jubilant, as reports from the capital of the years in the making. Johnnys are jubilant after the announcement of a deal to end the conflict in the corner, or even physically stop some people from showing their joy to define thousands of displaced people live want to return. Now that seems possible to return to the place where my mother grandmother were born from and to look to me. I cant even describe this feeling expressed after steady gains on the battlefield. Since september has been made possible, largely because of other by johns advanced military power, the president acknowledged his forces as he declared the conflict over heroes. As a result of their heroes and selfsacrifice, we return to our lands. That soldiers recover soon and return to normal life. I have called it an armenian defeat, agreed with russian relations under the deal will hold on to the areas of nagornokarabakh that it took during the recent fighting. Well, i mean, ia has agreed to withdraw from several other nearby areas in the coming few weeks. Russian peacekeepers will remain in the region but an extended 5 years in return other by john will stop its advances and the guns on the front lines have fallen silent. Many people in the capital dont completely trust russian peacekeepers and wanted their forces to retake all of the disputed nagornokarabakh region. The Turkish Foreign minister called the deal a secret success as the president hinted in addition to the russians. But its not yet decided exactly how those troops will be deployed. Other by johnny, say, a few weeks of war have achieved more than 2 decades of diplomacy. But maintaining peace is not going to be easy as thousands of people have been killed in both sides, and more than a 1000000 have really displaced and without reading another by gone. Some of it died out of their bucket. All right, lets bring in our guests in baku de ghar, our partner, raw, eat, shes a member of parliament in azerbaijan. In istanbul, Matthew Bryza, a nonresident senior fellow at the Atlantic Councils eurasia center, and Global Energy center, and previously served as u. S. Ambassador to is. There by john and in london, we have lawrence brewers associate fellow at the russia and Eurasia Program at chatham house. I just want to let our viewers know we made repeated attempts to have a representative from the armenian Government Join our panel, but they have declined. Welcome to all of you, matthew. Let me start with you. This agreement is not going to in decades of mistrust and tension. How do you begin to resolve that and do you believe that this deal is going to hold . Yeah, and thank thanks for coming for having me and you know, i served for 3 years as the u. S. Mediator over the nagornokarabakh conflict and what was agreed in the ceasefire agreement is the same thing. Its the same set of basic principles that we had put on the negotiating table in 2007, and which armenia and azerbaijan actually agreed to in principle in 2009. So this is a sound framework, again, that armenia previously accepted. But nicol question on abandoned, during the course of the past year. So i think it, theres a very strong chance it will hold. Not only because the principles make sense, but also because the armenians military doesnt have the ability to resist anymore. And i think russia is very much committed to, to the agreement holding, even though having its peacekeepers on the ground also provided the opportunity to, to have outsized influence. The gart with this agreement to you, feel that as they are by johns objectives in the going to have largely been achieved. I mean, do you see this as a victory . Well, thank you for question to start with, lets admit that International Community failed its mission to resolve. Now, going to have a conflict 26 years of on and off. Negotiations cannot be qualified in a different weight. Un Security Council resolutions, theyre not implemented. And no visible efforts are carried out by International Community in order to enforce them against this background as over. Dont enforce middleweights, legal abides or its ok to torys is absolutely justified. It is was an international low. And if there is someone to blame for the start, of course though this, it is armenia and i would Say International organizations, because International Organizations didnt do their job and armenia the everything to keep the occupation. And when the military actually hostilities started, again, International Community, even now they didnt do anything, the whole retort, it was around stopping milk to operation. It was not about ending illegal occupation. They should have called armenia to withdraw its troops from a survey labs. But now, what we see now is that the peace deal ending military hostilities in the occupied territories is the demonstration of as a rare chance wheel to reach sustainable peace and to restore azerbaijans international internationally recognized tutus to total integrity. This is what we wanted from the very beginning, and we wanted our a few g. s, an i. T. V. To go back to their homes. Well as a region have always wanted peace. And as my colleague met, metoo prizes said it was actually agreed, but then armenian side rejected, and armenia did everything just to stop, to keep startles cool war, and to turn it into a frozen conflict which was unacceptable for azerbaijan. Now i have a big question whether armenia is capable of sticking to the agreement achieved because as a region will do it as a region is always doing everything within the frame. The international though, and we always keep our fulfill our commitment. But i have a big question whether armenia is capable at all because armenia is turning into a rogue state. You see what is happening there now . I have serious doubts it wild that because even their president has came up saying that he didnt know anything about this Peace Agreement about this statement made and you see the rallies and pushing on these losing control. So again, if you ask me, i dont know, i dont know, i have a big doubt that armenia will fulfill it. Lawrence, there is a lot of anger in armenia about this agreement. What are the implications now for Prime Minister pasha myan . Is this considered a defeat . Well, i dont think theres any doubt about it. It is very clearly a defeat. I would question labeling the document that was signed by russia. I mean as a, by john, as a Peace Agreement, its actually 9 bullet points. It represents a partial inact moment, as matthew was saying, of the basic principles, the peace proposal thats been on the table since 2007 in different shapes and forms. But from an armenian perspective, the key issue is the status of this from an armenian perspective. Is the cause of the conflict, the fundamental issue that divides armenians and azerbaijanis. And this agreement doesnt say anything about that. President ilham aliyev has said that there will be no discussions of status for as long as he is president. And so, you know, that crucial issue i think remains unresolved. We dont know what the governance structure will be within the truncated nagornokarabakh thats going to now be patrolled by russian peacekeepers. And so in that sense thats, thats just one of the key issues. Perhaps the core issue that armenians are looking at and seeing absolutely not satisfied by this agreement and with regard to continue to premiership. I would agree that some reckless speeches and policies over the last couple of years have aggravated the situation. And i think there will be a reckoning. But i think the real reckoning is with the policy in armenia over the preceding 20 years from 1908 to 2018 when armenia essentially held on to its war gains and didnt take the opportunity to negotiate from a position of strength. And so i think, you know, theres a real opportunity now in armenia to reconsider that strategy and to think through a vision for the future of the country in the light of these new realities. Matthew, it looked to me like you were nodding to some of what lawrence was saying, so it seems you want to jump in. I will let you, but i also want to ask you about this. You know, russia has basically committed now to a peacekeeping operation. If it does not include any kind of a political process, so does that pose any problems for this agreement Going Forward . Oh, yeah, thats it. Well, it poses a problem for us, for sort of stability in this part of azerbaijan, youre russian. Peacekeepers have a terrible record of being up in of nefarious things in separatist conflicts in both georgia and moldova. I mean, i recall when i was the point person for u. S. Relations with this part of the world in washington. During the august war, the russians had positioned, their peacekeeping forces in front of the city and separatists, who then opened fire on the georgian army. And the georgians were afraid to fire back, because what it meant, killing a bunch of russian peacekeepers. So you know, it, when we just had this, this, this agreement put in place. I hope it doesnt come to that. But having those russian peacekeepers on the ground is not a net positive, except that peacekeepers are immediately essential, right, to keep the azerbaijani Armenian Forces separate and then later will be needed and are always part of the basic principles to make sure that the key elements of the principles that there is a road connection between our media and going to karbala can function safely. So i didnt see the International Community being ready any time soon to provide those peacekeepers that are so needed because all this happened so unbelievably quickly. Going back to 2, it lawrence was saying, yeah, this is, this is a, to me, this is the biggest strategic defeat for armenia since the bolsheviks took over. Maybe even before that. And it really is, i think, the greatest diplomatic victory in azerbaijans independent history. You know, there are all those people that the report was talking about. Pushing france still are pushing for us or by john to keep going. Keep going push further. But president aliyev chose the path of strategic restraint here. And we should keep in mind that since 2007, as lawrence said, when the, when, when actually week as i was one of the cochairs 1st table, those basic principles, you know, armenia, what was in favor in principle, and then azerbaijan accepted them as well. So, you know, its false and wrong to say that army, it somehow had the deal were still now than it could have gotten before the war even began to me without any fighting, if they would have just stayed at the negotiating table in good faith and not on the provocative things to which lawrence was alluding to, they could have got to the same point that they accepted 11 years ago. Last point is that i think president aliyev understood that hubris needs to be kept in check. Yes, the people are influenced about these unexpected military victories. But war is the continuation of politics. By other me, every war thats ever been ended has been ended not on the battlefield, but at the negotiating table. When, when the victor obtains the political objectives for which the victor began fighting the war, and that has just happened in the gar, and i want to talk for a moment about these. Ill let you jump in just a 2nd, but i also do want to ask you before you start, is it clear exactly where these russian peacekeepers will be deployed to . And do you believe that russias presence in the form of peacekeepers is going to pot pose any problems for authorities and is there by john down the line . Well, thank you again. Just a couple of additions i would like to mention regarding the status. Well, for the status for us, the status of kind of what is clear is the part of azerbaijan, asper in azerbaijan. E constitution as for international lo, as for un, as we see council of europe and all other International Organizations, the discussion of the status should stop and should turn into a discussion on how to achieve safety and prosperity as well as human rights for people who would live there who live there now regarding implications for Prime Minister pushing me. And i think that question yon was not capable of deciding and implementing in a consistent manner. His statement during the day very. And he lied a lot in media, for example, the whole story about cells and of mercenaries fighting for azerbaijan was nothing but a fake story. This was simply ridiculous and it was a kind of cheap sentiment to, to bring some medieval crusading sentiments of the, in the west. So, and as a result, he achieved basically nothing. He achieved some imagined allies far right. Sympathizers who expressed their support or came to care about to visit him. It was not wise at all. I would say guarding russian peacekeepers and the deal itself. Well, in an ideal world, there should be no need for peacekeepers because its a tutor over as a region and as a region is strong and sustainable state and is capable of providing its people with safety and prosperity regardless of their ethnically and political views. However, they peacekeeper element of the statement is again, a clear sign that as over jenny, government does not aim at harming any civilian on its territory. The future, as we see this region is a return of azerbaijan, the refugees talk and living together with armenians. And may remind you of, but if theres a tent to it, it tended to also azerbaijan. So basically, now for us, the main thing is to rebuild those lands because they have, they are completely destroyed by armenian occupation. They turned into a full c. D. s and we have a direct evidence of them being destroyed. There is nothing there except military, all tools and trenches. So basically this is they think, and also one on one common that i would like to make that its really a big shame that armenia in a decade has turned to in one ethnic country. One, i think states of 99 percent of People Living in armenia, they are armenian of armenian origin. And i would claim that, i mean yes, current demography is of the basically shameful achievement. So. So basically, thats it, lawrence will Ethnic Armenians trust the well, thats a very difficult question in one sense, and its a very straightforward question in another. The answer is no. I know that the rhetorical in azerbaijan is about offering a high level of autonomy that the rights and the rights of the car behind means will be guaranteed. But, you know, we have seen a very difficult history with that. And you know, i think we need to recognize that despite these offers over the last 24 years, there never has been a concrete paper, a document that would make clear what kind of commitment as a by john is willing to make. I remember a colleague from as a, by johnny civil society, had an idea to draft a constitution for in the going to care about republic as part of azerbaijan. Unfortunately, that colleague is living in exile outside of, of azerbaijan today. And i think, you know, what would really be very worrying is if we see the renaming of armenian settlements, the really attribution of armenian cultural heritage, for example, if it would be framed now as being caucasian, albanian rather than armenian, that would send signals to armenians that their culture, their heritage is not safe in azerbaijan, and i think, you know, we need to, we need to recognize that we need to recognize those fears. And beyond that, you know, the, the document that was signed this week seeks to resolve this conflict, seeks to impose a peace, essentially in terms of security arrangements and infrastructure. There was a question earlier in the session about politics. You know, we need to have a wholly different approach now to the core issues around reconciliation. Communities that are saturated with the worst possible stereotypes about one another and now about to come into much closer contact than they have at any point. In the last 2026 years. So you know, we need a multifaceted political process. One that is close to the ground. That is conveying the concerns and grievances of communities. And we also need an investigation process that will investigate and document alleged war crimes from this 6 week war in order to break the cycle of impunity. The will was in the 1990 s. Basically enact it very grave human rights violations. Very significant degree of ethnic cleansing on both sides and there was never an investigation or a process to address that. And my concern now is that if such a process doesnt happen, you simply build a New Reservoir of grievances that will eventually emerge in a new round of conflict 510152030 years from now. So i think, you know, the peacekeeping arrangements are crucial in order to provide for security, for the car behind me, a population right now, but we need much more intensive political processes aimed at rehabilitating these broken relationships between armenians and azerbaijanis. Carbon has a vagina is displaced from going to karbala and beyond. Matthew 2 pronged question, do you believe that this agreement means that moscow and are geo politically speaking, the new king makers when it comes to the south caucuses and also with president , elect biden . Is the u. S. , do you believe going to get any more involved when it comes to the region when it comes to this peace deal and the conflict before hand . Yeah. Well, leg starts the 2nd, i hope i hope the President Biden will get more involved. I mean the trumpet ministration, and the obama administration, though, really did not pay sufficient attention to the south caucasus. And then we see, you know, what a, what a potential powderkeg it can be with as you said, turkey and russia. Yes, the new king makers. I think i think that by the administration will all i know, they think, and that joe biden himself thinks in a systematic and strategic way, he understands russias ambitions in this region in the black sea region. And so i think and knowing the people that hes going to hire could be to 2 of my former bosses are top candidates for secretary of state. They understand and i think they will have a, an inclination to be involved. And i hope they will because to build the trust and to rebuild the economies, the infrastructure, the social in internet win. This, theres going to have to be a huge amount of external assistance from the us, from member states, from International Financial institutions. But yes, turkey and russia, i think, are de facto filling a diplomatic vacuum. And i really saw that vacuum coming into for this past july, when there were some major clashes, not around the corner, but are along the turkey azerbaijan border. And in the immediate aftermath, russia called snap military exercises in armenia with russian and armenian troops and turkey, reciprocated in azerbaijan. And i, you know what, i, as, as a guy whos mr. Nato at heart. I think its great that turkey is there, providing a diplomatic counterbalance, if you think like joe biden does, in terms of nato being at the center of u. S. National security, it cant be a negative thing. A priority that nato 2nd Largest Military is bringing its clout to not only to support us or by john in the conflict, but to, to encourage her by johnnies to accept this agreement. If you listen to what Turkish Foreign mr. Chubb surely has been saying hes been saying that, you know, this is a good agreement. And by the way, that president aliyev also he stuck with his the deal that he advocated back in 2009 didnt deviate from it, and brought things to closure here. All right, weve run out of time, so were going to have to leave the conversation there. Thanks so much to all our guests. The gaar are put there. I Matthew Bryza and lawrence brewers and thank you too for watching. You can see the program again any time by visiting our website, aljazeera dot com. And for further discussion, go to our facebook page. Thats facebook dot com, forward slash a. J. Inside story. You can also join the conversation on twitter. Our handle is at a. J. Inside story for me, mama june and the whole team here in doha, by for now to drive their industrial expansion and european powers colonised, huge areas of the world rich resources. So free labor and fast lands were exploited in the name of civilization and wealth until the colonies decided that had enough in a new 3 part documentary series out as they are exposed, the district suffering and legacy of france as in the real past. Not in tears french to colonise ation. Coming soon, an ethiopian, ours to crack and communist rebel, only to be disappeared. A familys tragedy, and twined with a violent chapter in the countrys history. When you see the blood, you say isnt going to be my blood will not walk to a life long search for answers and closure. Finding some witness on aljazeera revealing Ecofriendly Solutions to combat threats to our planet on aljazeera. Herbivores this is aljazeera. Hello there. Im just on the attack and this is the news hour live from our headquarters here and coming up the next 60 minutes, stepping down in protest more than a dozen pro democracy legislators in hong kong. Resigned after 4 of their colleagues were disqualified. U. S. President on makes his 1st public appearance in days as his team tries to fight the results of the election. And control of the u. S. Senate now depends on who wins 2 runoff races