Transcripts For BBCNEWS HARDtalk 20171219

In from the cold and moving towards becoming a fully integrated member of the International Community . The us lifted economic sanctions on sudan in october, ending two decades of its financial isolation. Washington says sudan has made progress on human rights, democratic reforms and ending ethnic tensions in the country. But critics argue sudans not done enough. There is still no peace in darfur and other conflict areas and they claim Human Rights Violations continue. My guest is ibrahim ghandour, sudans foreign minister. Has the government really made a fresh start . Foreign minister ibrahim ghandour, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you very much. Its a pleasure to be here. How far do you see the lifting of us sanctions as a chance for sudan to make a fresh start . Its lifting of sanctions in the inclusion in the International Economy and finance system. For quite some time, sudan has been barred from the International Economy, from dealing with banks, from money, investors who are lifting sudan, after are lifting sudan after being in africa, in getting Foreign Investors. As soon as sudan is back and we believe this is a good start for a country with a developing economy. At that time that the economy showed up to 9 of growth. But the Us Government still wants you to do more. Heather nauert, from the us state department, spokes person, said the move by washington recognised sudans sustained positive actions but more progress is needed. What more are you being asked to do . There is always more to be asked by anybody. But they were referring to human rights and religious freedoms. And we have been discussing this at length. We said that we are abiding with our constitution. We are abiding with all International Convention and agreements and previous conventions and agreements signed on human rights and freedoms and we are ready to listen to friends whenever there are critics. But you mention human rights and that is one very, very big issue. The British Ambassador in sudan, michael aron, says hes very worried about human rights, hes also worried about da rfur. Hes also worried about the continuing violence. Do you accept that you have to do a lot more . We are just coming out of a civil war in the south, and then we came out from war darfur, where darfur is peaceful now and we are now having a settlement, declaring a ceasefire for more than more than one year in the two areas. Negotiating the rebel groups. But we are in an area where it is in a turmoil. We are surrounded by Central African republic, south sudan, libya. You name it, you find it boko haram, al sha baab, isis everywhere. And in spite of that, people are trying to manage and have a country integrity. Still you must be worried if you are in that environment. This is why everybody feels that anything is possible at any time. But its whats going on in your country that is concerning people. Youve mentioned darfur and this is what the enough project lobby group cites, that theres continuing abuse and intimidation of civilians in conflict areas. He said, weve known this government for 29 years and they will never change. In fact the united nations, african union, hybrid force. 22,000 soldiers, observers from Different Countries of the world. The reports says that darfur is now peaceful. This is why the Un Security Council took a decision that it is not longer needed. Well, its only been reduced by a third. Theyll still keep some 10,000 forces there. It is a full course of departure, but it is first until december almost 11,000 are supposed to leave and then the rest will leave in the coming year. So, its a fully fledged departure and exit strategy in accordance by the government, the un and african union. There isnt any peace in darfur and you yourself have said the americans say they want to see more movement on that. There was even a government offensive in darfur as late as june last year. 100,000 civilians displaced and so on. So you accept that it is a very volatile situation, you need to do more and violence flares up very easily . I cannot say it is volatile, but i can say it is something that needs to be observed and supervised and the government is very keen to see that happening. What happened lastjune, in fact, this is the last rebel group that is still try trying to say, we are here. He is now in france. He refused all calls to sit down and talk. He refused all calls for peace. And he dreams of having his own government led by himself. But there are clashes between the rebels and pro government militias still in darfur. The Rapid Support forces, for instance, they need to be reigned in. The government could do something on that, manage them, integrate them into the regular security forces. You can do a lot. With all due respect, the Rapid Deployment force is not a militia, it is part of the army, it is having ranks, military numbers and identifications, military salaries from the army. They are part and parcel of the Sudanese Armed force. And their leaders are part and parcel of officers in the sudanese army. And clashes happen between them and the rebels . In fact it is not between them and the rebels, it is a trial of the government to collect arms from darfur and different parts of sudan. We are neighbouring countries with are neighbouring countries, with civil wars everywhere. Smuggling arms is very easy, selling and buying arms and it is part of the doha agreement to collect arms throughout the country and the government now did that fully in darfur. This is why even crimes are now almost cut off by 90 . So when it comes to darfur what is it then that the americans are saying . I asked you what more you had to do. The americans always leave the door open for a but. This is why they always say but it is because you cannot say everything is perfect and then you come again and make a reverse. This is why this is in politics and the policy is well known, you cannot say everything is correct and right. This is why it is always open for amendments or for critics if they are faithful and resourceful. And you also mentioned that the americans have said in this discussion about you know lifting the sanctions and what more sudan has to do, the question of religious freedoms and John Sullivan the deputy director, the us secretary of state paid a visit to sudan in november and he expressed deep concern about the fact that he feels there is religious persecution. In fact that was about sudan, from the list of countries supporting terrorism. This is the phrase two of our discussion with the americans. John sullivan was referring to the annual report of the state department of religious freedoms across the world and if you look into that report, you will find that every country in the world has been criticised by one way or another, including the us for religious freedoms and sudan is dealing with that. We have got a special community on dealing with religious freedoms across the country. Sudan is one of the countries that has seen an excellent religious coexistence between the different religions of the country. John sullivan himself expressing concerns about religious freedoms pointed to the destruction of churches and the arrests of priests. And we told him that the destruction of churches, these are illegal churches. Land that belongs to other people and at the same time why three churches were destroyed. Four mosques were destroyed at the same time. And that because there was a legal decision and that this land belongs to some people, and the churches and mosques were and mosques were built illegally on the land. But why would the reverend kuwa shamal, of the Sudanese Church of christ, say christians have no rights here any more . Everybody can say what he says, but many priests are saying otherwise. What about a recent case weve heard of more than 20 south sudanese Christian Women being arrested at a gathering in khartoum by the Public Order Police because they were wearing trousers and skirts and were therefore, they said were an affront to public decency . I remember very wellJohn Sullivan was talking on wearing trousers and when we left my office going to the Meeting Place we met a journalist wearing trousers. She was talking to me so i said this was an example that being said in the social media is not all true. But these women were arrested. And there are cases, i mean, according to the co ordinator of the no to oppression of women initiative, more than 15,000 women have been sentenced to flogging last year because of the affront to public decency . I read that press release. I doubt the number. But i can not deny there must be sometimes problems or indecency that has been reported be i the police. This is an issue addressed in our parliament right now. You are . Yes. So Christian Women can wear their trousers . It has nothing to do with with their religious. Muslim women are wearing trousers. Many are doing that. It is not an illegal behaviour to wear trousers. Another civic freedom is freedom of the press of course and Sudans National Intelligence and Security Services apparently seized press runs of four sudanese newspapers. The Sudanese Journalist Network designed it as a press massacre. We are having wide discussion over the press and journalists with journalists across the country. We are trying to have a new version of ourjournalists and newspaper law. That will not have punishment for whatever kind and leave everything to other laws and treat journalists like other citizens when ever they make mistakes. But why were these newspapers seized . This is within accordance of the law. It is within the powers of the National Intelligence and this is why, following the National Dialogue, many were asking and this is one of the decisions of the National Dialogue and it is a recommendation which has been endorsed by the government that we need to revisit 120 laws, among them is the press law. So, the law as it stands is, you think is inadequate and you are in the process of changing. It is right now under discussion. So that press freedoms are guaranteed . I am sure, in according with the constitution. This is one of the elephants in the room that we have been discussing, the issue of human rights and civic freedoms in sudan. The other one of course is corruption and you know when it comes to doing business in sudan, all the Economic Indicators show that business just runs scared. You know, theres a lack of transparency. Poor regulatory framework, huge reputational risks that Companies Take by doing business in sudan. By saying, look, we are open for business now that the sanctions have been lifted. You have to do a lot more . There is no country in the world that can deny there is no corruption of some kind. But i use the example of sudan getting investors from abroad. Until 2009 sudan was number two in the arab region in getting Foreign Investments and number three in the whole of africa in getting Foreign Investments and Many Companies from different parts of the world are there. Corruption, i cannot deny that there is corruption, but it is not of the magnitude that people are broadcasting everywhere. And it is part of the propaganda again of the government, but i will tell you that right now the government are investigating corruption and it is part of the resource of the recommendations of the National Dialogue. I tell you what abda el mahdi, Economic Consultant and former minister of state in the ministry of finance says, that the government of sudan is to blame as much as sanctions when it comes to, you know, the economic ills which have happened and she says that Foreign Investors will not come to sudan and local investors will not prosper if there is no level playing field, with economic and political stability and clear policies to reduce high levels of poverty. It goes without saying, for successful investment as well everywhere. But investment is part of it itself, because it creates decentjobs and it helps elevating poverty everywhere. But you know, last year there were demonstrations by students, yourformer vice chancellor of Khartoum University yourself. There were doctors, there were lawyers, all protesting against the high cost of living t removal of fuel subsidies and other subsidies and so on. Actually they, were mass result arrests, werent there as a result of those protests . Yes, in fact we are still not at the level of having Peaceful Demonstrations across our country, but there are many who are organising demonstrations against the government sometimes. And they go untried and arrested. But they have a right to protest, dont they . It is a right by law, and constitution. But sometimes we will go and disturb public facilities. The burn facilities, public or private and then the police intervene. We are for Peaceful Demonstrations, we for, in fact whatever that people can express themselves in the way in the way they like. Only those who wreak havoc and carry out violence were arrested because thats not the kind of report we got . And many Anti Government demonstrations have been going on peaceful, walking through the streets, slogans against the government. Students in particular. But the university of khartoum, you referred to and other universities as well. They have a right to protest and what a lot of demonstrators are saying and Civil Society organisations, particularly now that sanctions have been lifted, is that, look, we want to make sure that the lifting of economic sanctions is going to benefit all the people of sudan, that were not going to see vast profits creamed off by the government and its supporters. I fully agree with that. Can you guarantee and say that therell be full transparency . For sure. And we are one of the few countries in the world that is having an audited general, that doesnt report to the government. He reports directly to the parliament in an open, transparent broadcasted sitting of the legislative organ and that is coming in all newspapers. He doesnt take his report to the president or to the government or to the minister. It is from him to the parliament to the tv or radio to the press. Because you know sudan has got a lot of mineral wealth. Sudan is the second biggest producer of gold after south africa on the continent of africa, 90 tonnes of gold produced last year. About 50 i think were exported. Despite losing 70 of its Oil Production when the south got independence in 2011, sudan still produces 88,000 barrels of oil a day. Youve got the Agricultural Land and a lot of riches in the country. And i must say to you, you know, people really want to know that the riches, the Natural Resources of the country will go to the benefit of the population as a whole, where there is wide spread poverty . Definitely and this you can see them in growth. You can see them on various occasions. You can compare the roads which have been built, the bridges that have been built, the transformation in education, the number of universities, the number of schools, the numbers of hospitals and hospital beds. That you can see it, but its still we need to reflect on peoples way of living. At a time oil was there, people used to have a new way of living. People used to a new boost, a new way of living. All of a sudden, oil was a way and people had a shock. If not the diversity of the sudanese economy, that shock had been a devastating shock to the country. But in spite of that, sudan overcame the shock and the economy was again on the right path. But there is wide spread poverty, as i said. A third of children suffer malnutrition in sudan. One in two people experience poverty. It is only a country of 37 million. If you say that its got these riches, why havent you done something about these poverty rates . Youve had nearly 29 years in power as the Ruling National Congress party. You are a Senior Member of the party. You have been a member of the Parliament Since the mid 90s and so on and so forth. In fact, sudan has been in civil warfor a long time and then after the cps. That is the comprehensive peace agreement. Then we entered into the darfur conflict and the two areas came in peace with a country with civil wars and conflicts, you need a lot of spending. Two, sudan has been under sanctions for 21 years. That is also another problem. In spite of that, the economy is moving. And development is going on. Drugs are available, which has been imported. Sugar is available. But prices are expensive, the cost of living is high. Ifully agree. And there is a problem that needs to be addressed. And you have given your guarantee that the issue of corruption at high levels is not something which the government will tolerate. Definitely. We can hold you to that . Yes. The whole of the leadership is against corruption. All right, you have the message you have given very much indeed, foreign minister is that sudan is turning a corner, using the lifting of the us sanctions to be readmitted fully into the International Community. I have to ask you then, why was it that the president when he went on a visit in november to moscow, you were with him, and he obviously held talks with president putin and what he said, he described us aggressive acts and asked for russias protection against these acts, saying we believe the problems with the region are facing have been caused by us interference . He was referring to areas like syria, iraq, afghanistan and others. No one can deny the role of the us in those countries. But protection from the us, the president was referring to a particular incident. In the us Security Council at a time, less than eight months ago, the us and other stakeholders within the Un Security Council tried to pass through the Un Security Council a resolution that prevents sudan from exporting its gold and at that time they called it bloody gold. Russia and china and egypt at that time stood against that. It was not possible to go through and get the resolution. And the president was referring with president putin on russias support within the Security Council. He was referring to russia. Just that specific act. There was more to the conversation, saying there might be a military base, russia could build a military base on sudans red sea coast, that a lot of observers said, this sounds like a bit of a snub to washington and sudan cosying up to russia, at the very time that america has lifted the sanctions and youre looking forward to closer ties with washington . No, we dont tie our relations with any country or another one. We are looking for excellent relations with russia. Why we are waiting to have excellent relations with. Not a snub to washington then . Not at all. That will never happen. Otherwise we shouldnt have been to talk to the americans for more than two and a half years in order to get the sanctions lifted and we started a new chapter for the second, on the second phase. But youve still got the fact that sudan is on the list of us, on the us list of states that sponsor terrorism. Informed speculation in well regarded circles says that america would not remove sudan from this list until president bashir departs the scene . No, this is not true. 0h unless, if they dont want to co operation on counter terrorism. The director of the cia on 15th june last year, declared publicly in the International Media that sudan is one of the most countries that are supporting the us in counter terrorism, and sudan is not supporting any kind of terror against the us or other countries. When will you be removed from the list . We are agreed on a plan that we will continue for the whole of the year, because it requires the president s decision, the Congress Decision and then back to the president. Its a process. This is why we are discussing our relation with the us at that time with dr rice and state secretaryjohn kerry. That is the Previous Administration . The Previous Administration. They said that time is not enough. All right it will happen ina yearorso. This is howJohn Sullivans visit was concerned. Another elephant in the room is the fact that president bashir has got two arrest warrants issued by the International Criminal Court Related to allegations of human rights abuses to do with darfur. Hes been in power since 1989 time for him to call it a day, dont you think . You know, this is a decision of the people and people in the west shouldnt ask us to follow them in democracy on everything. And there are other leader ins the world whose leaders are still there because their people want them. Sudan, as you know, had two popular revelations since 64 and 85. Sudan proceeded the arab spring in overthrowing government. He will stand again in 2020 . I dont know, this is the decision of the people. Will he stand . He said he will not stand. I am not sure what will happen. Now we are more than two and a half years away, some people want him to stand. A majority are talking about that. What would you like to see . You know, it is very difficult to say. But president bashir has been leading sudan excellently. He saved sudan from different problems. Sudan has been targeted from Different Countries of the region, through proxy by the us. Foreign minister, ibrahim ghandour, thank you very much indeed for coming on hardtalk. Thank you. Hello. High pressure can bring a fairly settled spell of weather at any time of year and certainly we have a High Pressure dominating the scene across a good three quarters of the British Isles, not doing just enough to keep the fronts at bay in the far north and north west of scotland, as you will see. What it can mean is that we start the days on a fairly chilly note. That is not my great concern as we get into the first part of tuesday. It is just how dense the fog is going to be and how widespread that dense fog could well be. I am highlighting a number of areas there. Bbc local radio is a good source of local information as to how it will affect your journey. 0n the bigger picture, there are islands of fog that we had quite widely across england and wales and that is not the only source of poor visibility. 0bviously that frontal system coming in with the rain wont help matters, high ground helping to lift the temperatures, in fact down on the shores of the murray firth it will be 13 or 1a degrees. The peaks and western side of wales coming to the south west could all be affected by some hill fog. Despite the fact that the shield of fog lifts across southern england, it could linger in east anglia and the south east for the greater part of the day. It could well be that we see a return of some of that fog as we start the new day on wednesday. More patchy perhaps, but still the odd pocket of dense fog and you only need one pocket to ruin your day. This frontal system makes slow progress down and across the British Isles as we get on through the day on wednesday. Bringing with it the possibility of some rain, i dont think there will be an awful lot, although it may be enhanced. That frontal system waving its way across the heart of the British Isles during the day. To either side, it is essentially still relatively mild, but as the frontal system comes further south, the milder airs will tend to be confined over the southern parts of britain, maybe something slightly colderjust making its presence felt across northern parts of scotland and into northern ireland. I think single figure temperatures but not perishingly cold, the breeze is coming across the top end of a new developing area of High Pressure as we close out the week. Then further south, that band of cloud, the old weather front tending to dissipate and maybe the odd spot of rain on the far side. But we close out the week on a relatively dry note. Take care. 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