Is one of the big these of british politics. Known as the father of the house because he is the longest serving member of the commons he has also held more cabinet post than any other living british politician. Yet, ken clark says we are now in the maddest situation of his lifetime and talks of a political system that is broken. It is one of the reasons he could not quite bring himself to retire at the last election, staying on to fight against brexit and for the conservative party. Is it a fight he can win . Ken clark welcome to hardtalk. You have served underfour Prime Ministers, heath, thatcher, major and cameron and yet you say we are now in the maddest situation. What do you mean by that . It is so chaotic and unpredictable. We got here by accident, nobody planned it. Nobody thought that leave would win the referendum campaign. Nigel farage was as amazed as David Cameron to find he had won. Both Political Parties lost their traditional Political Support to, or large parts of it. Activist organisations do not represent their votes. Loading patterns call it. An election produced no result whatsoever. We win the old mining tales to make towns but we lose kensington. And we lose canterbury to the labour party. Let me sum it up. Anyone who tells you, in my opinion, if anybody tells you that they know what is going to happen to british politics over the next 12 months is deceiving themselves. It is impossible to predict. Would you like to see another uk wide vote, either on leaving the eu or, indeed, on the deal when it is done . either on leaving the eu or, indeed, on the deal when it is done . I hope i never lived to see another referendum held on any subject that people think should be given any constitutional or. It is an absurd way of running a modern and complicated country. Particularly so when you have a big broad brush yes, no question. Should we move, should we stay . Within that are hundreds of complex sub questions of things that will be affected. A stupid three or four week will be affected. A stupid three or fourweek campaign. Will be affected. A stupid three or four week campaign. You hate referendum is so much that you think it was a mistake to have had one. Having had that one and acting on it you would not say it should go back to the country to either sign off on the deal ought to have a second vote on the question . If the remainer s we re on the question . If the remainer s were to win next time presumably of were to win next time presumably of we would have to shake hands and agreed to try best of three. These are serious issues about the governance of the country, about the well being and prosperity of children and grandchildren. I believe in parliamentary democracy taking considered and grown up decisions. As an mp you will get a vote next year. You were the only conservative mp to vote against article 50, the article that triggered the uks exit from the eu. Will you vote against any deal whatever it looks like . Will you vote against any deal whatever it looks like . |j will you vote against any deal whatever it looks like . I made it clear that i accept that parliament has decided. The referendum was advisory, in my opinion, that is what the british constitution says. Politically people signed up to it but i did not. The parliament, by a big majority decided to leave. Article 50 process started. We may stop it but i dont think the Political Class could possibly screw themselves up in this country into trying to stop it. In my opinion, given my values, were doomed to leave. Indeed. So there will possibly be a deal on the table, but there be a vote. Will you vote in favour of the deal . If it is a good deal. We still need to decide what sort of vote we get. Let me sum it up sort of vote we get. Let me sum it up and give your short answer for a change, i see myself as trying to minimise the damage and try to get the best possible outcome of this undesirable situation that does the least damage to the future political standing of this country in the world and our economy. We still have to sort how what kind of vote parliament will have and i want a meaningful vote, that is the phrase we will use. By that, i think, the government must, afterfinishing we will use. By that, i think, the government must, after finishing the negotiations, get the approval of parliament before it ratifies the deal. If parliament reject bid and in my opinion you go back to the negotiating table and see if you can negotiate something which you can get through british parliament. And this is where it is different from article 50 vote, we could be in a situation where you are voting against the government, your own government, that is effectively a vote of no confidence. If others vote of no confidence. If others vote as you would want them to the government could fall. I wonder if you are in a situation where you are more fearful of leaving the eu under certain terms than you are of a Labour Government and Jeremy Corbyn . It will not bring the government down. I voted against the government several times already. And i voted with the government more times than against it on european issues. Nobody notices that. A against it on european issues. Nobody notices the to a against it on european issues. Nobody notices the us e against it on european issues. Nobody notices thi us 55; continue. Against it on european issues. Nobody notict on ie us 2 continue. I against it on european issues. Nobody noi which i liftiifef jii the 155577 . N, voting 7. , 7 4231 . which it give, will give the government of the day approval for this particular deal . Nowadays, all events of this kind are surrounded by a far more hysterical entertainment nonsense about the personalities. What matters is the arrangements we are allowing the government to put into place for the future. You are the person who points out the conservatives do not want another election and part of that is that they currently do not have a majority. You think a conservative party, as things stand, could win another election . If there were one now it would be a bigger gamble than another referendum. The public would be appalled if the Political Class called for another election. Remember, the public dont like either of the parties. Remember, the public dont like either of the partieslj remember, the public dont like either of the parties. I am asking you particularly about the state of the conservative party at the moment. The parties are in a frightful mess. The Public Attitudes towards them are totally unpredictable. Indeed. But if the conservative party, we learned from the chairman of the that 70 democracy that the membership he reckons is about 70,000. We dont know figures because they have not provided quarter a year. Of that number make sense . The membership is the smallest and the oldest in my political career. I dont no i dont exactly bring down the average age when i go to meetings but i still feel out of place. Comparing toa still feel out of place. Comparing to a labour party that has half a million members as of last summer are lit as a mass membership of young lefties who are unrepresentative of their generation. Both sides, activists, do not represent the people they represent. Nearly half conservative Party Members of a 65, nine out of ten are middle class and two thirds are meant. That difficulty. Unit is party so well and you have known it at different stages. I tick those boxes myself. There is a range of opinions about such people. I think everybody in the conservative party knows that we need to look back to what we can do to get back to younger peoplejoining what we can do to get back to younger people joining as activist in our party and actually get back to winning support of young people electorally because the referendum, in particular and the general election which was roughly the same, it divided the generations to a bizarre extent. There are plenty of people under the age of 50 who ought to be natural conservatives because of their approach to life and their entrepreneurial ship, their aspirational. They are all voting labour. Aged disappointed disgruntled White Working Class men in the north are the votes we are winning. We must attract the sort of people in the Younger Generation who would benefit. People like you used to be. Would a young ken clark joined the conservative party these days . No idea. Yes, ithink joined the conservative party these days . No idea. Yes, i thinki joined the conservative party these days . No idea. Yes, ithinki might. Might use. I have always been driven by my views. I add a free market economist and combined with a social conscience. It needs to be regulated and the benefit of everybody and i am internationalist, pro european. Everybody and i am internationalist, pro european. And to use your own words you are impeccably working class. I believe in meritocracy and social mobility. That kicked off the start of my will, my origins. Social mobility. That kicked off the start of my will, my originslj wonder what there is about the conservative party. As a young man, you make the point why young people who would have voted remain, as indeed you would have, why they would be attracted to the conservative party. It can only make itself more attractive. It was an attractive because it was then be modernising and forward looking party did post war politics in the post war position of britain which had atrophied. We had been a laughing stock after the suez canal. So d roves of laughing stock after the suez canal. So droves of young people joined the conservative party because of the modernising thing they were doing. At the moment the public eye reason more cynical and disillusioned with politics and i say than i say young people were with traditional politics in the 1960s. We should ta ke politics in the 1960s. We should take an ambitious ideas of modernising the country, adjusting quickly to the opportunities of the globalised economy, sorting out our place in the world, how do we, nowadays, define our interest and value in wider politics, how do we make certain that we get our population into modern industries that can thrive. On those values of one nation conservative list which is something you have always despised, it stands for united citizens around the idea that they have an obligation to each other. Addressing the needs of all social classes and all of that. Is that dead . No. I dont think it is dead. I think dead . No. I dont think it is dead. Ithinka dead . No. I dont think it is dead. I think a large number of the public are attracted. It has been not been mobilised very well. X has become polarised and dominated by protest. It is becoming dominated by short term media hysteria. Not your programme but the worst of the media, not the best of the media. And we need to go back to getting a grip on what is each party for, what does it seek to deliver. I would be attracted, i am attracted by the party that is most likely to deliver the kind of one nation thing you spoke about. Is at your party at the moment . I think so. Spoke about. Is at your party at the moment . Ithink so. But spoke about. Is at your party at the moment . I think so. But we are going through a bad period. Parties have taken a battering. Europe is. The idea that either party is united is ludicrous. The other thing after the referendum that theresa may, the Prime Minister stood outside downing street and gave what many people said was a one nation speech, talking about the management is. You agree with every single word. I do wonder if there is any evidence of that being reflected in what she has donein that being reflected in what she has done in the 18 months hence . We agree with you. It was a splendid aspiration. A splendid vision of what the party was. We need now the policy and the implementation of the policy and the implementation of the policy that will enable us. What has happened so far is not going to inadequate hes. Is there anything you would point to that you would say that following through. Aspirations . On the things that are important to you. She was also talking about capitalism and the people it has left behind, she was talking about that in the past few days. She is talking about people dealing with those who take excessive pay out of the company when it is doing badly and pay no regards to pension rights of workers. 18 months on and one of the reason she may have talked about it is that we know from the chartered institute of personal development, the average ftse 100 institute of personal development, the average ftse100 executive took home in the first three days of this year the salary of an average worker. Corporate pay generally, i am in the minority in this, it corporate pay has become a farce since the 1900. I was a chair of the Remuneration Committee of several companies and i got embarrassed about what the consultants were urging me and my colleagues were playing, to pay to executives. Theresa may says she will deal with this. If shareholder democracy doesnt work then i would give them more power, making their votes binding then we need to see what we can do to check by the way of bonus when companies performances dont justify it, no mathematical justification for it or when the payment of the executives is continued in two soaraway and the government is performing badly. The department of business and treasury should be working on mechanics for that, i am a lawyer but the legal challenges of that. That, i am a lawyer but the legal challenges of that. You make the point. That is the field i would open up. When i ask about what theresa may has done, son and she said after 18 months, the likes of your follow mps, ed said after 18 months, the likes of yourfollow mps, ed balls, sarah waste have talked about her timidity and her lack of ambition about her government which means it constantly disappoint. There are people i often quite agree with, but on this occasion i think they are unfair to a tribute that to her and her personality. The fact is, brexit is the elephant in the bath dominating the elephant in the bath dominating the political life of a nation to an extraordinary extent. It is difficult to see how you escape from that, it will be the giant requirement of a government to deliver something on brexit for the next two years and the conservative party has not yet sorted itself out over what compromise is going to agree to pursue. So Everything Else gets pushed out a. They are right. They are right to warn her that she has got to stop it being pushed out andi has got to stop it being pushed out and i suspect if she were here she would agree in spades. She wants to do other things than brexit. What about Boris Johnson . £100 do other things than brexit. What about borisjohnson . £100 million to the nhs is the brexit dividend. The personal publicity day by day, it was a bridge and a channel. That is an attempt to rescue boriss reputation at out the daft dishonest figure he was associated with during the campaign. He has obviously read a newspaper about people going on about spending in the nhs. That is a boris being. For his own purposes. The nhs needs money. The nhs, it has got a lot of more money and the question is how much . You will never be able to satisfy anybody. As Philip Hammond and jeremy have been finding, when you put more money into the nhs nobody gives you slate credit for it and in any use, the lobby come back asking for more and i have been chancellor, it has been nice for years. Actually there is a case for more money for the nhs because the ageing population means demand is rising and changing. There isa demand is rising and changing. There is a case of notjust giving them a money, it gets blown and pressure gets taken off, great deals of change in the nhs, continuing to strive for higher performance is needed. That is being delivered by the government. And so it is not a simple question of how much extra of the opposition or lobby is now going to say they want after the last lot you gave them, it is what do you do with it . The treasury cannotjust throw money around, it does have deficit problems. So you would push back on Boris Johnson . deficit problems. So you would push back on Boris Johnson . I would say which packs, which department will you take the money out of to give it to the nhs . The serious people i would say, given the public are totally resistant to paying any more tax nowadays for anything, i didnt have quite this problem when i was chancellor, they didnt expect the budget isjust to chancellor, they didnt expect the budget is just to be given away as precedents to everybody. Would probably do need more revenue. Social care first of all, and the nhs particularly as you make them integrate, that is where you need money. Where to raise it and how to responsibly raise it and how we set about saying to a reluctant public that this is in the public interest. Indeed. Also, a public that feels it is disaffected not just indeed. Also, a public that feels it is disaffected notjust with politics but also capitalism. You make the point that you are effectively a social liberal but in economic terms you have always been a free market and of the conservative party. I havent changed my mind, for a0 years there has been magnificent improvement in living that we have seen an global polity is fallen the most in history. Inequality and the crash and the people that feel that they are and the people that feel that they a re left and the people that feel that they are left behind a. That is what we all neglected. Those enthusiastically taking part in the great normality of the 1990s, with hindsight my having been reproved in the public, what we ignored at our peril was this wasnt benefiting everybody. What would you do now . I would address that question which he has addressed in speeches. What would you do . Talking about some of the corporate excesses, i think you have also got to address what are you going to do to switch on the economies of all those areas which the americans call rust belt places. How are you going to get more investment, more of the modern industry to go there so steadily they can rejoin the modern world and derive the benefits from the globalised economy which then derive like everybody else. But at the moment, a lot of the electors are right in saying look around this town, you are doing nothing. Right in saying look around this town, you are doing nothingm right in saying look around this town, you are doing nothing. It was the regions and Global Growth that jim 0neill, lord 0neill, the former chairman of common sacks were to do and said i may have got it wrong on brexit. He warned about the trouble for the economy is the short term, as did you. In the short term. Term, as did you. In the shortterm. I didnt. You said it would be unpleasant, i cannot value quite how severe but if it collapsed you would have severe interest rates. That didnt happen, what happened was a severe increase in inflation. I didnt go on that rubbish. The national media. I dont normally carry on about the media, but the National Reporting of the referendum was as distressful as campaigning parties on the other side. All they did was support the rubbish on either side. In the longer term now, can you see a route through this process were actually the uk, instead of having four years being awkwardly inside the eu, sits co mforta bly being awkwardly inside the eu, sits comfortably outside . Yes, i would go back on the lancaster house feature, i think we should stay in the Single Market, Customs Union, i dont think the public were ever told we were leaving them. The leave people reassure them that trade would not change, our relationships would be the same because the germans had to sell us their mercedes and the italians their press echo. How on earth we have decide to lead the Single Market and the Customs Union for i cannot imagine because the public did not vote for that. Given that you at one stage were planning to stand down as an mp, but stayed on. That was at the end of 2020 in a full parliament, i thought. Will you stand down . I think this time, i will. Had i retired three years earlier than intended . You will see brexit through . I am glad i didnt miss it. It can be chaotic, extraordinary, what i can gather, pretty brass off with some of the things going on in british politics. The silly nonsense at the moment. Actually this parliament will decide some more important questions about the future of this country and the well being of future generations than practically any i served in the. Ken clark, thank you for coming on hardtalk. Hello there. After the downpours and gales of wednesday, the weather prospects for thursday look a little bit quieter. This curl of cloud here, that was storm georgina now pushing off to the north east. What we now have feeding in is this speckled cloud, some showers pushing in from the atlantic, in fact, some heavy showers coming thick and fast into Northern Ireland through the first part of the morning. Also some showers pushing in across the west country into devon and cornwall, some of these could be on the heavy side. Seven degrees there in plymouth. There will be some sunny breaks between those showers, and that mixture of sunshine and showers extends across wales and into the west midlands. A cooler, fresher start to the day, four degrees in birmingham. You will notice a lot of showers across Northern Ireland at this stage, could be some hail and thunder and perhaps some wintryness over high ground. Certainly the chance for wintry weather over Higher Ground in scotland. Temperatures in aberdeen, three degrees, four there in edinburgh. Some sunny spells. Showers into north west england, but across north east england, the east midlands, east anglia and the south east, should be getting off to a dry start to the day with spells of sunshine, cooler and fresher than it was on wednesday morning. Through the day will bring this cluster of showers eastwards across just about all parts of the country. Some of them could be heavy, could be thundery with some hail mixed in. Some wintryness over the high grounds in the north pennines, the southern uplands, but there will be some spells of sunshine too and temperatures of around 5 10 degrees. A fairly chilly feel i suppose, but it wont be as windy as it was on wednesday. Now, during thursday night into friday, the showers will take time to fade away, but in Western Areas particularly they will ease as the winds ease as well. It could turn cold enough for a touch of frost because this little bump in the isobars, this little ridge of High Pressure will be toppling in during friday morning. So actually after a frosty start for some, were looking at a decent day. Spells of sunshine, bit of patchy cloud and thickening cloud into the west later on ahead of this weather system, but i suspect it will stay dry until sundown wherever you are. Those temperatures of around a 9 degrees. But those temperatures will start to climb into the weekend, we start to bring in a more south westerly wind. Mainly dry in eastern areas on sunday, a fizzling weather front from the west, but temperatures climbing all the while because we will Group Bringing mild air from the south west, so on sunday it will be a pretty mild feeling day. Generally large areas of cloud, some sunshine too particularly down towards the south east, some outbreaks of heavy rain into northern scotland, a windy day and a mild one too, 9 13 degrees. This is the briefing. Im david eades. Our top story mounting calls for the board of usa gymnastics to quit over the sexual abuse of Young Athletes by former team doctor, larry nassar. A veteran us diplomat quits his role advising myanmar on the Rohingya Crisis saying Aung San Suu Kyi lacks moral leadership. Flood alerts in paris and across france as water levels keep rising. And coming up in the Business Briefing greenback sliding. The dollar slumps to a 3 year low on trade tensions and comments by the us treasury secretary welcoming a weaker currency. Im Sally Bundock in davos in switzerland. Us